Forgiveness

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by lemex

This particular thought should not be part of forgiving. The reference of repentance is not about forgiveness. Is forgiving about conditions. Forgiving isn't only about one person being right and the other person being wrong. It is about healing for both. If a person asks for forgiveness would it be given if repentance weren't attached. Many people hang on to old memories and an illusion. This is the first question, are we talking about something that no longer happens where we think we can forgive. I must say I like the point made, forgiveness applies when asked and as said it is not just about accepting what is done but also was done. It is about change. Often we are talking about two conditions, not only one.

To illustrate my point , i would take an example . If u are a shop owner and u see a poor boy shoplifting articles from your shop and he is caught red handed in camera and now u have the power to hand over him to the police, now here u can forgive the boy here if you fill genuinely
1. that boy's condition was pretty bad and he stole goods as a last resort
2. that boy genuinely feels he has done something wrong
3. that he promises not to repeat it and earn his bread by working hard

You can give him a chance and let him go scotfree . Otherwise in the absence of repentance there is no point to forgive him and not to handover him to police for further prosecution . If you let him go without ascertaining such issues , he may become more seasoned thief in future and indirectly in a small way u too may be party to it .

So as said dynamics is pretty complex. In real life it can be more complicated than this . I am all for forgiveness unconditionally . But situations may call for different treatment and forgiving here would really not heal the wrong-doer as expected by you.

In life we are not alone and every action of ours has re-actions and for which we too may responsible albeit partially in small measure .

If u have any situation /example in mind , u can share it . And probably we can come up with better rephrasing / elaboration of such situations .

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Just to be clear, I'm talking about forgiving everybody responsible for that tragedy: parents, educators, activists, politicians, voters who elected them, members of the media, ... Too many? That doesn't make them less guilty.

Two days later another two kids 13, 14 years old, were arrested for carjacking; also in D.C..

Yes these are questions for the society as a whole and it has to be answered by society as a whole with small small contributions from individuals like us. It's very complicated and more beyond the scope of this forum .

[lemex]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

To illustrate my point , i would take an example . If u are a shop owner and u see a poor boy shoplifting articles from your shop and he is caught red handed in camera and now u have the power to hand over him to the police, now here u can forgive the boy here if you fill genuinely
1. that boy's condition was pretty bad and he stole goods as a last resort
2. that boy genuinely feels he has done something wrong
3. that he promises not to repeat it and earn his bread by working hard

You can give him a chance and let him go scotfree . Otherwise in the absence of repentance there is no point to forgive him and not to handover him to police for further prosecution . If you let him go without ascertaining such issues , he may become more seasoned thief in future and indirectly in a small way u too may be party to it .

So as said dynamics is pretty complex. In real life it can be more complicated than this . I am all for forgiveness unconditionally . But situations may call for different treatment and forgiving here would really not heal the wrong-doer as expected by you.

In life we are not alone and every action of ours has re-actions and for which we too may responsible albeit partially in small measure .

If u have any situation /example in mind , u can share it . And probably we can come up with better rephrasing / elaboration of such situations .

It isn't clear if being done as a last resort justifies it, forgiveness. Justification isn't repenting. But if I am a shop owner and I happen to catch a person, I might even let them keep it or not. Catching them even changes the dynamic of it, there is awareness and that can change their life and the individual must deal with it openly now. I would look at the communication. Back in the day we use to call the parents and it would be resolved. Still the power is with the owner. In the example I'd seek an alternative way even allowing choice. I guess it's what one deems as best. No escaping cause and effect and the future it leads to. I don't look for repentance, this is me saying what they have to do immediately projecting what I say they must do, but if it's not a big deal allowing enlightenment and observation. Even universe may be involved. Every person who is forgiven when they feel they shouldn't will at some time appreciate probably through experience seeing the effects of that, which leads to cause and effect which you will never know happened. I would simply say they are aware of what forgiveness is and did when one is mindful. Actually in the case given I would blame the parents and society more. If there are other solutions I would consider them first. Each person must deal with themselves and that is not getting off scot-free if change happens. Of course there is not only one way.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by lemex

It isn't clear if being done as a last resort justifies it, forgiveness. Justification isn't repenting. But if I am a shop owner and I happen to catch a person, I might even let them keep it or not. Catching them even changes the dynamic of it, there is awareness and that can change their life and the individual must deal with it openly now. I would look at the communication. Back in the day we use to call the parents and it would be resolved. Still the power is with the owner. In the example I'd seek an alternative way even allowing choice.

You rightly listed your preferences . Letting the stolen articles with the boy is one of the option I listed (if felt his condition really warrants that) . There can be really many such options if we get into details like making him work in the shop for the value of the article and letting him take the article respectfully.

Originally Posted by lemex

I guess it's what one deems as best. No escaping cause and effect and the future it leads to. I don't look for repentance, this is me saying what they have to do immediately projecting what I say they must do, but if it's not a big deal allowing enlightenment and observation. Even universe may be involved. Every person who is forgiven when they feel they shouldn't will at some time appreciate probably through experience seeing the effects of that, which leads to cause and effect which you will never know happened. I would simply say they are aware of what forgiveness is and did when one is mindful. Actually in the case given I would blame the parents and society more. If there are other solutions I would consider them first. Each person must deal with themselves and that is not getting off scot-free if change happens. Of course there is not only one way.

My point is to be responsible / alert while being noble (when stressing repentance before forgiveness). Being noble at heart, forgiveness without condition like repentance is always a great and I appreciate such bigheartedness of yours. In the ultimate analysis , all such nuances are very difficult to be gauged . Only self and God can judge it perfectly. Others can at best gauge something from limited details he/she may have based on their perception filter.

[tom63376]

When someone does or says something that I find myself reacting negatively to, feeling annoyed, angry, hurt, vengeful, etc., I ask myself, Do I really want to feed and prolong these feelings and the time/creative energy consuming ruminating over what I should have said, or how I can get revenge or how I’d like to see them suffer, etc, etc.?. Then I ask myself:
-Does it serve any constructive purpose for me to languish in this very unpleasant pit any longer than I already have?
-Am I willing to let this person redefine me as something far, far less than I really AM? Am I willing for the rest of my life, to let every person and every circumstance that I judge as unfair, unkind, mean, inconsiderate, evil, etc re-define me? I AM Spirit. I AM love, joy and peace. Am I really willing to accept the prospect of continually allowing people and circumstances to redefine me as less, and waisting my limited time and creative energy endlessly indulging in negative thoughts and emotions?

However, I believe there is nothing wrong with gently but directly, matter-of-factly confronting the person who wronged me, only IF I can do so from a neutral, non-judgmental state of consciousness and simply point out that when they did what they did, I felt such and such. I believe this is equivalent to "...turning the other cheek". I find that when I can find the strength to do this, it is usually quite shocking to the other person. Many times people feed off of confrontation and want a fight and of course, are very intent on winning that fight. When I simply say or imply what was done is forgiven they don't seem to know what to do. In most cases, they have never faced that response before in their entire lives. And it gives them an opportunity to reflect on what they did neutrally and objectively, rather than endlessly defend it.

Many people seem to have a hangup on the idea, “But if I forgive them, it’s like they never did what they did — they just get away with it” They need to suffer consequences or they’ll just keep doing it.” Well, obviously serious criminal acts should be reported and the perpetrator should face the civil consequences and where necessary be separated from society to protect innocent people. But for probably the other 99% of cases, I trust the Law of the Creator to take care of things: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.”

[GlitterRose]

I've forgiven huge things. Murder and molestation, in fact.

It doesn't mean that there weren't legal ramifications for those things.

When I said the words, "I forgive you" right to their faces, even though they hadn't really faced themselves about it...they did then. They broke down into tears and were, probably for the first time...truly sorry.

I wonder if that would have happened if I had met them with rage or "righteous indignation."

If you hold hatred and desire for vengeance in your heart, it is like a poison pill that you take, yourself.

[A human Being]

Originally Posted by GlitterRose

When I said the words, "I forgive you" right to their faces, even though they hadn't really faced themselves about it...they did then. They broke down into tears and were, probably for the first time...truly sorry.

I wonder if that would have happened if I had met them with rage or "righteous indignation."

I suspect not, because people tend to become defensive when faced with judgment or hostility, they tend to go into resistance. Acceptance, on the other hand, tends to be disarming, but we humans have a habit of holding on to grievances like our lives depend on it, God bless us - even though, as you go on to say:

Originally Posted by GlitterRose

If you hold hatred and desire for vengeance in your heart, it is like a poison pill that you take, yourself.

This is wisdom - it's like the old saying goes: 'Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die'.

That isn't to say that it's easy to let go of these feelings (I've found it anything but, in my own experience), and I'm not judging people if they are having a hard time letting go of anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. The unfortunate thing of it is that people tend to get caught in such surface negativity, not realising that what's underlying it is feelings of deep grief and hurt. We humans often have to reach breaking point in order to become conscious of and release those deeper feelings.

It depends on the nature of the forgiver and the "sin" committed against them surely. I'm a strong believer in retribution. It a) makes me feel better; b) drives the lesson home to the "forgivee" and c) returns spiritual homeostasis.

I'm no doormat. I can forgive the penitent and often part of their repentance is making good the damage / injustice. That's a sign that they deserve forgiveness.

Like Native Spirit, I feel that forgiving may be easy whereas forgetting isn't so one will inevitably be on their guard against the "sinner / forgivee" in future. Therefore, has the sinner been forgiven at all?
.
.

I've stumbled across forgiveness in this article when I was really trying to stop feeling guilty about something I have done in the past.

I hope it can be of some interest

https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2015/11/h...eeling-guilty/

[GlitterRose]

Originally Posted by A human Being

I suspect not, because people tend to become defensive when faced with judgment or hostility, they tend to go into resistance. Acceptance, on the other hand, tends to be disarming, but we humans have a habit of holding on to grievances like our lives depend on it, God bless us - even though, as you go on to say:

This is wisdom - it's like the old saying goes: 'Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die'.

That isn't to say that it's easy to let go of these feelings (I've found it anything but, in my own experience), and I'm not judging people if they are having a hard time letting go of anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. The unfortunate thing of it is that people tend to get caught in such surface negativity, not realising that what's underlying it is feelings of deep grief and hurt. We humans often have to reach breaking point in order to become conscious of and release those deeper feelings.

That's true, and I'm not trying to blame people for that, either.

My forgiveness of the really huge things had to go in stages.

I had to say the words and then grow into truly feeling that way.

It did help me that I was able to witness, first hand, the effects of the words.