Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-09-2020, 09:31 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Physicist: The Entire Universe Might Be a Neural Network

Physicist: The Entire Universe Might Be a Neural Network
"The idea is definitely crazy, but if it is crazy enough to be true? That remains to be seen."

https://futurism.com/physicist-entir...neural-network

Well I don't know about all that, but the entire universe that I live in, where all of my experiences of life occur, is in fact a neural network, they call it a brain.

I kind of think such an idea fits, the parallelism just seems right.

What do you think?

Possible, or just more fringe wacky pseudo-science?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-09-2020, 11:04 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,089
 
“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” ― Nikola Tesla
Today's "fringe wacky pseudo-science" may be the orthodox-science of tomorrow ... Surely, there's no guarantee. The only guarantee is that some science of today will be obsolete.

I read the article you linked, and some google links about "neural networks", but I didn't understand enough what are neural networks. The definition doesn't really mean much, as I doubt that science knows enough about the human brain to model it, and loosely is an euphemism for anything.
Neural networks are a set of algorithms, modeled loosely after the human brain, that are designed to recognize patterns
I browsed this too:
https://wiki.pathmind.com/neural-network
Probably, Tesla's quote is the way for science to follow.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-09-2020, 11:28 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
“The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence.” ― Nikola Tesla
Today's "fringe wacky pseudo-science" may be the orthodox-science of tomorrow ... Surely, there's no guarantee. The only guarantee is that some science of today will be obsolete.

I read the article you linked, and some google links about "neural networks", but I didn't understand enough what are neural networks. The definition doesn't really mean much, as I doubt that science knows enough about the human brain to model it, and loosely is an euphemism for anything.
Neural networks are a set of algorithms, modeled loosely after the human brain, that are designed to recognize patterns
I browsed this too:
https://wiki.pathmind.com/neural-network
Probably, Tesla's quote is the way for science to follow.

Yes, I have seen you post the Tesla quote before. It is a good quote, and probably quite true. What and how of existence is one thing, but the why is something we do not seem to put much scientific thought into, and the qualia of experience is something rather illusive as well. As an aside, I tend to think that all phenomenon are at root 'non-physical', it is only consciousness that draws these distinctions based on how it experiences them.

What struck me about the idea of the article, is that the brain itself is a network of neurons, wired together through the dendrites and synaptic junctions. It is believed that the pattern of firing of those networks of neurons somehow creates the holographic world within the brain in which we live. All the senses can deliver is patterns of neurons firing or not firing, the brain makes up an experience of reality based off of those patterns by feeding that input into its own network of neurons.

I did not get a clear picture of this profs theory from the article either. It sounds like he is still fleshing it out. But the idea that our larger shared reality follows this sort of neural network pattern is intriguing, because if so, then perhaps we are seeing a fractal like pattern built into a consciousness based universe. Each human mind is a neural network, but in turn is part of a larger neural network like structure. If we follow this up through the higher dimensions of string theory, then perhaps those higher dimensions consist of the next higher fractal level, a network of networks of networks (or a multiverse, of multiverses, of universes) and so on up the chain. This would make a great deal of sense based on the accounts I have read about the dimensions of string theory.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-09-2020, 02:14 AM
inavalan inavalan is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,089
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer

Yes, I have seen you post the Tesla quote before. It is a good quote, and probably quite true. What and how of existence is one thing, but the why is something we do not seem to put much scientific thought into, and the qualia of experience is something rather illusive as well. As an aside, I tend to think that all phenomenon are at root 'non-physical', it is only consciousness that draws these distinctions based on how it experiences them.

What struck me about the idea of the article, is that the brain itself is a network of neurons, wired together through the dendrites and synaptic junctions. It is believed that the pattern of firing of those networks of neurons somehow creates the holographic world within the brain in which we live. All the senses can deliver is patterns of neurons firing or not firing, the brain makes up an experience of reality based off of those patterns by feeding that input into its own network of neurons.

I did not get a clear picture of this profs theory from the article either. It sounds like he is still fleshing it out. But the idea that our larger shared reality follows this sort of neural network pattern is intriguing, because if so, then perhaps we are seeing a fractal like pattern built into a consciousness based universe. Each human mind is a neural network, but in turn is part of a larger neural network like structure. If we follow this up through the higher dimensions of string theory, then perhaps those higher dimensions consist of the next higher fractal level, a network of networks of networks (or a multiverse, of multiverses, of universes) and so on up the chain. This would make a great deal of sense based on the accounts I have read about the dimensions of string theory.
You made me google for "qualia" ... :)

I subscribe to the idea of a fractal structure in the sense of gestalt in gestalt in gestalt, in an universe made of consciousness, consciousness being seen as a dimension too.

I can imagine dreaming that I have a brain that is built of neurons, and in my dream having the same kind of conversation, having no any idea that I am a dream character.

My notion of multiverse relates to the universes created by each point of awareness, at all levels from atom, molecule, cell, mineral, plant, animal, man, and probably others.

In a room, me and my pet, he chasing a bug. At this level each one of us creates their own universe, three universes that aren't identical, "perceived" by each one's senses, that might not be exactly the same five, even more or or less than five.

Our perceptions aren't through senses, but are converted into the set of stimuli for those specialized senses from information we get form a "neural like network" if you want to which all of us are connected. It sounds complicated but it is actually simple once you accept there is no physical universe we somehow perceive.

Each point of awareness can project on a limited range on the consciousness dimension. That is actually the level of evolvement of each such point, man included. As I wrote somewhere, this range depends, at least in our perceivable range on the consciousness dimension, on evolving through instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, from mineral through plant, animal, to man.

I got carried away. Sorry. If not interested please ignore.

Anyway, interesting to wonder about these, and working on some thought experiments.
__________________
Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-09-2020, 02:29 AM
FallingLeaves FallingLeaves is offline
Master
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6,383
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
You made me google for "qualia" ... :)

I subscribe to the idea of a fractal structure in the sense of gestalt in gestalt in gestalt, in an universe made of consciousness, consciousness being seen as a dimension too.

I can imagine dreaming that I have a brain that is built of neurons, and in my dream having the same kind of conversation, having no any idea that I am a dream character.

My notion of multiverse relates to the universes created by each point of awareness, at all levels from atom, molecule, cell, mineral, plant, animal, man, and probably others.

In a room, me and my pet, he chasing a bug. At this level each one of us creates their own universe, three universes that aren't identical, "perceived" by each one's senses, that might not be exactly the same five, even more or or less than five.

Our perceptions aren't through senses, but are converted into the set of stimuli for those specialized senses from information we get form a "neural like network" if you want to which all of us are connected. It sounds complicated but it is actually simple once you accept there is no physical universe we somehow perceive.

Each point of awareness can project on a limited range on the consciousness dimension. That is actually the level of evolvement of each such point, man included. As I wrote somewhere, this range depends, at least in our perceivable range on the consciousness dimension, on evolving through instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, from mineral through plant, animal, to man.

I got carried away. Sorry. If not interested please ignore.

Anyway, interesting to wonder about these, and working on some thought experiments.

i found this interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-09-2020, 11:46 AM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
You made me google for "qualia" ... :)

I subscribe to the idea of a fractal structure in the sense of gestalt in gestalt in gestalt, in an universe made of consciousness, consciousness being seen as a dimension too.

I can imagine dreaming that I have a brain that is built of neurons, and in my dream having the same kind of conversation, having no any idea that I am a dream character.

My notion of multiverse relates to the universes created by each point of awareness, at all levels from atom, molecule, cell, mineral, plant, animal, man, and probably others.

In a room, me and my pet, he chasing a bug. At this level each one of us creates their own universe, three universes that aren't identical, "perceived" by each one's senses, that might not be exactly the same five, even more or or less than five.

Our perceptions aren't through senses, but are converted into the set of stimuli for those specialized senses from information we get form a "neural like network" if you want to which all of us are connected. It sounds complicated but it is actually simple once you accept there is no physical universe we somehow perceive.

Each point of awareness can project on a limited range on the consciousness dimension. That is actually the level of evolvement of each such point, man included. As I wrote somewhere, this range depends, at least in our perceivable range on the consciousness dimension, on evolving through instincts, emotions, intellect, intuition, from mineral through plant, animal, to man.

I got carried away. Sorry. If not interested please ignore.

Anyway, interesting to wonder about these, and working on some thought experiments.

Well nobody will ever need to apologize for getting carried away to me.


I can relate to almost all of that. I have also found that ditching the physical realism for something more akin to idealism does end up being something of a Rosetta stone.

I like the concept of a fractal structure made up of layers of gestalt, especially as there is no independent 'physical universe' as such, and so it is the gestalt of the reality we create that matters, the experience arising from the activities of the networks...of non physical idea based 'things'.

Consciousness itself underlying it all makes sense to me. Even if 3 dimensional objects could exist in an independent objective reality, zero, one, or two dimensional ones can only exist in our minds. The fact that fundamental particles are said to be zero size point particles, lends credence to the idea that at root there is no 'physical' reality which we sense, and that those physical senses are part of the dream as well.

Of course this is also already true in the sense that the only thing we know about those senses is from what we can experience in the holographic reality of the brain, that gestalt arising from that neural network. This idea that there is no actual physical reality is hard to accept for many as they experience it all as being so 'real'. Yet it cannot be denied, not even by the material realist, that what they are experiencing as 'real', is actually the holographic 'reality' created within the brain. Somehow, the activities of that neural network give rise to this holographic virtual reality where we live. Gestalt is the right word for the reality the brain creates. Even if it is another layer of Gestalt that is creating the brain itself.

A matrix of matrices perhaps. With consciousness underlying it all at the zero dimensional level. Perceiving/dreaming all of that information into a 'physical existence' within itself, giving reality to abstract concept, experiencing the non-physical as physical, giving meaning to that experience, and thereby gaining a greater and more in-depth understanding of it. Calling it, at least in this iteration, the experience of life.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-09-2020, 12:25 PM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,741
 
I've been listening to this fellow lately, quite fascinating and tells something I have been personally conceiving over some time now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3rPfU5sss
__________________


The constantly promoted belief (induced by religions) that we are born to be good and obey (in order to enter heaven) is a tragic error in the concept of the universe's plan and an insult to mankind's intellect.

'A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory'
- Mark Twain.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-09-2020, 02:05 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busby
I've been listening to this fellow lately, quite fascinating and tells something I have been personally conceiving over some time now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3rPfU5sss
Yes, I believe you posted this link in another thread. Existence is not the only thing that is f'in weird, that dude is a bit as well. He's got a kind of Marilyn Manson thing going on there. But that is OK, I have found I liked what weirder dudes than him have to say. Let weird people say weird things.



In fact in my above reply to inavalan I talked about fundamental particles and how they are said to have zero size. On the other hand they are said by some to be non-local. That is to say they are spread out everywhere prior to observation. And so is both zero size and the size of infinity, depending on how one looks at it. But then some would say it is not the electron that is spread out. That the electron does not yet exist prior to observation and it is the probability of where one might find it to exist, if one were to make an observation, that is distributed (albeit extremely unevenly) throughout the universe. Which makes the idea of existence even f'in weirder when we look at the quantum level. Of course if what we mean by existence is just our perception of its existence, then things start to make a little more sense.

But then we can look at something massless, like a photon, and find it travels at the speed of light, and therefore does not experience time and could be said to be timeless or could perhaps be said to be eternal. Ask it where it is going next and what adventures it will have along the way, and it can honestly tell you it is going everywhere and doing everything, all at once. It is not its fault we are too massive to go along. Perhaps something to do once one no longer has mass?

So our freaky looking friend talking about how zero and infinity are really the same thing, is not so freaky an idea after all. What is really freaky to contemplate is it is not just the electron that does not seem to exist outside of our perception of it, but perhaps all physical matter, and even space and time. You, me, here, there, now, then, even that moon, are all just creations and playthings of our own consciousness. Perhaps freakishness, kind of like reality itself, is in the eye of the beholder.

.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-09-2020, 04:14 PM
janielee
Posts: n/a
 
ketzer:

LoL this is too intellectual and complex for me, but I just wanted to say that I wouldn't be surprised if true.

The 3D world is a creation, I presume, of thought, like a dream. And yet it's put together very nicely - 3D is not real though. It's real and it's not real right

Anyway, I'd much prefer knowing for myself than believing it as another theory so will leave it to that, but wanted to say

"Who knows?" As Shakespeare said, "There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio, / Than are dreamt of in your philosophy [science]."
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-09-2020, 09:59 AM
Busby Busby is offline
Master
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,741
 
I've tried to point out a couple of times on SF just how odd it is that we, I mean each of us as well as all the rest of creation accept the fact of living almost as if there is a hidden part of us that knows what it's all about. In truth we should be shocked out of our shoes to realise that we are actually 'here'. Most children pop the question 'mummy, where do I come from?' at about the age of six or seven. The stork usually suffices as an answer.
The absolute staggering, shocking, remarkable, extraordinary, incredible, flabbergasting realisation that I/we (and presumably everything) is/are in a state of awareness should be shouted from the roof tops every morning.

We don't realise that this universe didn't exist until we were born!

There are 8 billion of us and countless elephants, bees, sheep, grasses, dandelions, mountains, seas and so on, all of which cannot be explained.
Many of us humans take life as granted, - 'it is so', an attitude that can be fully accepted - after all it doesn't seem as if we actually asked to be here.

I personally am not on this forum because of some biblical god or far eastern philosophy but because I have experienced happenings in my life which defy any explanation, lying outside the rules and regulations set by logic.
Naturally any attempt to give an idea of how this all came about catches my interest every time. I'll listen to anything from any of the 8 billion individual universes which are at the moment on this planet. (if there is a planet).

My suggestion that we could ask the rice planter standing up to his knees in the paddy fields in Vietnam for an explanation didn't get much response here in SF - but would have been as valid as anything else.
__________________


The constantly promoted belief (induced by religions) that we are born to be good and obey (in order to enter heaven) is a tragic error in the concept of the universe's plan and an insult to mankind's intellect.

'A clear conscience is the sure sign of a bad memory'
- Mark Twain.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums