What if Jesus never said to give to Caesar?

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Why do you always single out Christians?


Can you not say that also of other religions?

I don't always single out Christians Big J.

You keep doing the same thing over and over Big J. Just because someone address the actions of one group, does not mean they are applying it to that group only. Plus, as I have indicated in most (if not all) of my posts, that some/many/most Christians may engage in a behavior, but not all. You conveniently and repeatedly ignore the actual post and object to and argue against what is not there. If you have a legitimate argument against a point I make then make that, don't just repeatedly misrepresent what I say and then object to that instead. Anyway, it is Christians who single themselves out, in some cases even going to the point of telling others to get lost if they don't consider them to be Christians.

This is a forum about Christianity and my response was to another post regarding Christians hating Judas. My first point was not to lump all Christians together as a monolithic group, which you seem to suggest must somehow be the case. My second point, is that many Christians, though they are quick to tell one about their personal relationship to Christ, and how they follow him, don't, IMO, actually seem to understand nor follow the lead of Jesus. I have met many (not all John, not all ) Christians who seem to make hatred of others a central tenet of their faith. While their reasons for hating this group or that group are varied, they seem to ignore the one central message of Jesus's teachings, that one is to practice love and forgiveness to all, that hating just leads to more hating.

Is hatred widespread among the human race? Yes, of course it is, but I suppose there is widespread practice of love as well. One solution to that problem of hatred would be for humans to follow the teachings of Jesus, the ones about compassion, forgiveness, and love, as best as one can. Which let's face it, in this world we live in, ain't an easy thing for a human being to do. When people want to know how to follow the teachings of Jesus, they look to the Bible as well as to others who already claim to be doing so who call themselves Christians. Yet in both cases, they find violence, revenge, hatred, and condemnation, all mixed in with those essential teachings of love.

So in a certain very real sense, many Christians single themselves out when they claim to be the ones who understand and follow the teachings of Jesus, and represent themselves as such to those who don't know what that might mean. My point in addressing those Christians, as such, is to point out to them that it seems to me like there is a systemic disconnect, among many (which in case you are confused does not mean all) Christians, between what they claim to represent and what they actually do. To point out that using Christianity and Jesus as a tool to sow division and hatred for vain human purposes is wrong and somewhat oxymoron-ish to say the least. To express my opinion that just because we see Christians claiming to follow Jesus, but acting more like they follow their own mythical devil, that does not mean Jesus must be that devil. One can follow Jesus's teachings without necessarily calling oneself a Christian, or subscribing to all of the human created and human sanctioned religious dogma and politically motivated agendas.

It is a matter of separating out the wheat from the weeds planted among it. It seems to me that Jesus planted some pretty good seeds, yet many in the Christian religious establishments throughout the ages, have planted many weeds along side it. One can still see and harvest the wheat, but they must single it out from among all those weeds. But from a distance, the whole field can seem like such a mess that many might look on and decide there is no crop there worth the effort to try and harvest, and instead decide the best thing to do is to set fire to the whole field.

.

[quote=BigJohn]Where in the Bible does it say that Jews of that time period had the hope of 'everlasting life?[/QUOTE

There you go again you tricky sidewinder. You took what I said out of its context, implied it meant something else, and then argued against it. I was speculating on a statement (I added it back in below) regarding why some might experience post-death confusion.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...2&postcount=54

"JC plainly says that there is no judgement after death, and that who believes that statement won't get confused and will cross over directly into the eternal life; the others will experience a post-death state of confusion caused by their beliefs."

My speculation was.

"Hmmmm, perhaps their confusion arises from expecting to be going somewhere for eternal life and not knowing that is where they have been all along. It makes sense anyway. When I have been engrossed in a really good book, or been watching a really good movie (especially in the theater), when it comes to an end, there can be a few moments of surreal feeling as I have to adjust back into that experience I call my everyday reality."

Which is a general speculation on how some envision life and death and how such a belief may result in confusion after death. Among the followers of JC at that time yes, but more generally as a whole. It is not an assertion that Jews of some period held certain beliefs. Which makes Big J's response and its intent behind it a bit suspect. Perhaps you are just randomly throwing quiz questions at me? Perhaps you are just trying to annoy me? Perhaps it is most important that others see all your knowledge and you as knowledgeable, rather then using it to make a particular point? IDK.

Anyway, if you want to keep doing this, you are free to do so for another couple months, but I won't bother to call you out on it each time, that get's old fast. I will leave you to go about trying to accomplish whatever it is you are trying to accomplish here.

Originally Posted by Molearner

ketzer,

Thanks....a lot of truth in your words...:) To borrow from an old movie...Cool Hand Luke...."what we have here is a failure to communicate". There is no communication if we are only hearing ourselves. It is our attachment to ego that draws us here....we come here to strengthen our egos.

The shutting down of these forums represents an opportunity for all of us. It is imposed on all of us that we must relinquish this attraction/distraction. In large part, the pandemic has done the same thing...we have been forced to give up a lot of things. In my case, not only is it participation on this forum but it has also been many other things.....seeing family, travel, eating out, sports, trips to the library to name just a few. It is enforced introspection and while it might seem painful perhaps it is a good thing.

There was a time when I had a personal discipline of meditation....it is time to revisit that with a renewed focus and dedication. Suddenly cooking has become more important as well as intentional exercise. I have given up numerous things over my lifetime and have found that I am no longer dependent on them to define my life as good or bad. I think we must learn to welcome change whether or not it is welcome. Perhaps, in the end, it is simply our desire to live that gives us impetus.

I agree in some ways as I often use this forum as a convenient way to procrastinate, and a way to talk about spirituality rather then practice it.

Yet what I will miss most about it is that when I read my posts, I almost always find that the one I am talking (sometimes preaching) to, is me. It sort of serves as writing prompts, but what gets written, despite how it is couched, ends up being one part of me talking to another part of me.

And once I recognized what was going on, I have found to be useful. Although now I may find myself reminding myself about what I said to the point of becoming something of a self nag. :) I have thought about trying to do this with a journal, but I procrastinate instead. Also, I think there is something about putting ones beliefs out in the open and allowing others to challenge them forces one to think about them from a different perspective. Journaling just doesn't seem to play the same role.

That said, the draw to the EGO to play Guru is an ever present danger. One particularly alluring to myself as my history has left many parts of that EGO feeling inadequate and in need of affirmation. Affirmation can be a nice thing, just like a cold beer on a hot day, but if one is an alcoholic, it can become a real danger as well.

I expect though, as you seem to allude and I have also found, that immersion into the experience of life and into nature, is also a very beneficial means to spiritual growth and understanding, if of course, one is open to it. Perhaps then I will make a more concerted effort to get the binocs out and go birding a bit more often.

[sky]

[quote=ketzer]

Originally Posted by BigJohn

Where in the Bible does it say that Jews of that time period had the hope of 'everlasting life?[/QUOTE

There you go again you tricky sidewinder. You took what I said out of its context, implied it meant something else, and then argued against it. I was speculating on a statement (I added it back in below) regarding why some might experience post-death confusion.
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...2&postcount=54

"JC plainly says that there is no judgement after death, and that who believes that statement won't get confused and will cross over directly into the eternal life; the others will experience a post-death state of confusion caused by their beliefs."

My speculation was.

"Hmmmm, perhaps their confusion arises from expecting to be going somewhere for eternal life and not knowing that is where they have been all along. It makes sense anyway. When I have been engrossed in a really good book, or been watching a really good movie (especially in the theater), when it comes to an end, there can be a few moments of surreal feeling as I have to adjust back into that experience I call my everyday reality."

Which is a general speculation on how some envision life and death and how such a belief may result in confusion after death. Among the followers of JC at that time yes, but more generally as a whole. It is not an assertion that Jews of some period held certain beliefs. Which makes Big J's response and its intent behind it a bit suspect. Perhaps you are just randomly throwing quiz questions at me? Perhaps you are just trying to annoy me? Perhaps it is most important that others see all your knowledge and you as knowledgeable, rather then using it to make a particular point? IDK.

Anyway, if you want to keep doing this, you are free to do so for another couple months, but I won't bother to call you out on it each time, that get's old fast. I will leave you to go about trying to accomplish whatever it is you are trying to accomplish here.

That's the reason I nominated you for Sainthood, you have the ' Patience of a Saint ' and your being persecuted unjustly

[sky]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I agree in some ways as I often use this forum as a convenient way to procrastinate, and a way to talk about spirituality rather then practice it.

Yet what I will miss most about it is that when I read my posts, I almost always find that the one I am talking (sometimes preaching) to, is me. It sort of serves as writing prompts, but what gets written, despite how it is couched, ends up being one part of me talking to another part of me.

And once I recognized what was going on, I have found to be useful. Although now I may find myself reminding myself about what I said to the point of becoming something of a self nag. :) I have thought about trying to do this with a journal, but I procrastinate instead. Also, I think there is something about putting ones beliefs out in the open and allowing others to challenge them forces one to think about them from a different perspective. Journaling just doesn't seem to play the same role.

That said, the draw to the EGO to play Guru is an ever present danger. One particularly alluring to myself as my history has left many parts of that EGO feeling inadequate and in need of affirmation. Affirmation can be a nice thing, just like a cold beer on a hot day, but if one is an alcoholic, it can become a real danger as well.

I expect though, as you seem to allude and I have also found, that immersion into the experience of life and into nature, is also a very beneficial means to spiritual growth and understanding, if of course, one is open to it. Perhaps then I will make a more concerted effort to get the binocs out and go birding a bit more often.

Mo and Ketzer...... Hello......
It's NOT closing down

[quote=sky123]

Originally Posted by ketzer

That's the reason I nominated you for Sainthood, you have the ' Patience of a Saint ' and your being persecuted unjustly

That's OK, helps to foster my martyr complex.

I don't mind suffering for the sake of everyone else, I am used to it, don't bother yourselves about me.


.

Originally Posted by sky123

Mo and Ketzer...... Hello......
It's NOT closing down

Oh great! Do you mean to tell me that Big J is going to be able to keep dry gulching me forever. I can't keep up with of that sneaky varmint.

Originally Posted by BigJohn

There seems to be a lot of people who claim they understand the Bible
but can not explain why Jesus went to the cross. Which is odd, because it is a major doctrine.

Same goes true for why Jesus had to die on the day he died.

Just because they don't accept your doctrine on why Jesus went to the cross does not make it odd.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I don't always single out Christians Big J.

You keep doing the same thing over and over Big J. Just because someone address the actions of one group, does not mean they are applying it to that group only. Plus, as I have indicated in most (if not all) of my posts, that some/many/most Christians may engage in a behavior, but not all. You conveniently and repeatedly ignore the actual post and object to and argue against what is not there. If you have a legitimate argument against a point I make then make that, don't just repeatedly misrepresent what I say and then object to that instead. Anyway, it is Christians who single themselves out, in some cases even going to the point of telling others to get lost if they don't consider them to be Christians.

If a person only goes after one religion and not the others, they can be identified as ant-[that religion]. It becomes there identifying mark.

Originally Posted by ketzer

This is a forum about Christianity and my response was to another post regarding Christians hating Judas. My first point was not to lump all Christians together as a monolithic group, which you seem to suggest must somehow be the case. My second point, is that many Christians, though they are quick to tell one about their personal relationship to Christ, and how they follow him, don't, IMO, actually seem to understand nor follow the lead of Jesus. I have met many (not all John, not all ) Christians who seem to make hatred of others a central tenet of their faith. While their reasons for hating this group or that group are varied, they seem to ignore the one central message of Jesus's teachings, that one is to practice love and forgiveness to all, that hating just leads to more hating.

As for Christians hating Judas...... Judas was born a Jew and died a Jew. If you remember what I wrote, I indicated this was the first time I heard that 'some' Christians hate Judas.

Like I have mentioned before, why Did Jesus have to 'die'? Why did he have to die on the day he died? And other questions to help people look at what Christianity is all about. Knowing and understanding those questions will help a person to understand what some of the most important tenets of Christianity..

Originally Posted by ketzer

Is hatred widespread among the human race? Yes, of course it is, but I suppose there is widespread practice of love as well. One solution to that problem of hatred would be for humans to follow the teachings of Jesus, the ones about compassion, forgiveness, and love, as best as one can. Which let's face it, in this world we live in, ain't an easy thing for a human being to do. When people want to know how to follow the teachings of Jesus, they look to the Bible as well as to others who already claim to be doing so who call themselves Christians. Yet in both cases, they find violence, revenge, hatred, and condemnation, all mixed in with those essential teachings of love.

If you believe what you wrote, then why don't you set the example?

Originally Posted by ketzer

So in a certain very real sense, many Christians single themselves out when they claim to be the ones who understand and follow the teachings of Jesus, and represent themselves as such to those who don't know what that might mean. My point in addressing those Christians, as such, is to point out to them that it seems to me like there is a systemic disconnect, among many (which in case you are confused does not mean all) Christians, between what they claim to represent and what they actually do. To point out that using Christianity and Jesus as a tool to sow division and hatred for vain human purposes is wrong and somewhat oxymoron-ish to say the least. To express my opinion that just because we see Christians claiming to follow Jesus, but acting more like they follow their own mythical devil, that does not mean Jesus must be that devil. One can follow Jesus's teachings without necessarily calling oneself a Christian, or subscribing to all of the human created and human sanctioned religious dogma and politically motivated agendas.

By pointing out to Christians all of their short comings, are you trying to tear down their faith while at the same time replacing with nothing else? Do you really think that going after a person's religion is the right course to change somebody's religion or could it actually be making the person's faith in their religion stronger?

Originally Posted by ketzer

It is a matter of separating out the wheat from the weeds planted among it. It seems to me that Jesus planted some pretty good seeds, yet many in the Christian religious establishments throughout the ages, have planted many weeds along side it. One can still see and harvest the wheat, but they must single it out from among all those weeds. But from a distance, the whole field can seem like such a mess that many might look on and decide there is no crop there worth the effort to try and harvest, and instead decide the best thing to do is to set fire to the whole field. .

Who gets to separate the weeds from the wheat?
It looks like you can't find any wheat so why continue preaching to the weeds?