Does ANYONE here believe JESUS was a savior?

Originally Posted by Ascended Master

That's interesting!

The bit that stumps me is why so many deities born prior to Jesus were also born on the 25th December? And why the basic outline of their 'legend' correlates exactly with the stories of Jesus.

Because the prior dieties were from the inner/outer mystery religions, that preceded Christianity..... they were alligories that made up the outer mysteries.... easy and simple for the masses to digest....and a great vehicle for giving moral guidance to those not inclined to seek the inner mysteries... Early Christianity used these same alligories as their outer mystery... and thus the same story with a different leading man....
Once a Literal Version of Christianity became the state religion of Rome, a literal acceptance of what had once been an outer mystery alligory has become our inheiritance...

I must admit that as an ex-christian fundamentalist I have struggled to shake off some of those old ideas. But I have come to the conclusion that for me personally, the idea of Jesus as saviour no longer works for me. It has been a long, hard journey to get to that position but I found that ultimately the whole thing has been deconstructed for me by modern scholarship. John Shelby Spong's 'Rescuing the Bible from fundamentalism' is a good introduction to the problems of the traditional Christian view, as is James Barr's 'Fundamentalism'. Trouble is, modern scholars are good at deconstructing traditional views but then they struggle to put something in its place...the often heard criticism is - 'So just what DO you believe?'

I do believe that Jesus Christ is the saviour of the world......There is just too much evidence to support that...He was born from a virgin....do you know any man that was born from a virgin?????Also in the Old testament there are so many exact predictions shows just how he would come ,live and die.....It was written thousands years before he came and fullfilled all of them....My only problems are that I have been hurt by the fundamental christian chuch and all the dogma,the doctrine..bla bla bla...Ifelt worse than ever.....

Its funny how we all have an innate knowledge of what God is and when anyone tries to forcefully define it it makes us feel bad because we know what they are saying is wrong. God is the essence of all of us, all we have to do is listen to our hearts of gold, no need to teach or be taught by anything outside just by our inner voice.

PLease may I bend your ear with my problem dear souls.......I sufferer from depression many years......also lonelyness so I took refuge in christian tv.....it made me feel somewhat better sometimes cause i didn't have time to go to church and I like to hear about Jesus......I go to church sometimes....here's what hurt me so......I am allways suffering with money problems cause I never have enough to pay bills food etc....I get by paycheck to paycheck......then I was told by the christian church that I was robbing God by not giving him his 10 per cent and I was cursed......I should have enough faith and trust in God to give him my money(his money) and he will supply my needs ......so theres the problem.....I'am left feeling guilty all the time but ....One church said if I don't give my 10 per cent to find a different church.............some help me not feel like a theif...does God still Love me?

Originally Posted by wayfaring

I must admit that as an ex-christian fundamentalist I have struggled to shake off some of those old ideas. But I have come to the conclusion that for me personally, the idea of Jesus as saviour no longer works for me. It has been a long, hard journey to get to that position but I found that ultimately the whole thing has been deconstructed for me by modern scholarship. John Shelby Spong's 'Rescuing the Bible from fundamentalism' is a good introduction to the problems of the traditional Christian view, as is James Barr's 'Fundamentalism'. Trouble is, modern scholars are good at deconstructing traditional views but then they struggle to put something in its place...the often heard criticism is - 'So just what DO you believe?'

The problem you bring up of not being able to put something in its place is the result of 2000 years of literal christianity. The Eastern Mediterranian religions that preceded Christiainty and around which Christianity was originally modeled were Inner/Outer Mystery Relgions... The teaching method for the Outer Mysteries was one of Myths and Alligories. These served the purpose well as they gave hope, guidence, and a Simple to understand starting point for the masses. They were entertaining stories with light moral undertones.
The stories addessed the fundamental building blocks of Loving your Brother and striving to become a better person... As one studies the religious beliefs of Ancient Egypt, Siria, Greece and other mediterranian civilizations they will find the same alligories with an astonishing simulairity... Born of a Virgin, Born on Dec.25th, Died for our sins, was resurected three days later, the list goes on with amazing simularity... Such was the teaching methods of the outer Mysteries. and for thousands of years it served well.... However, for those that started to see thru these myths and alligories their exsisted the inner mystery schools... when students were observed to starting to question these stories they were introduced to the teachings of the inner mysteries.. where they were exposed to the closley guarded secrets of the higher self... teachings and information extremely like the topics and discussions found on this very forum Unfortunetly the inner mystery schools are all but extinct and these Higher inner mystery concepts often have to be discovered individually... Once the outer mysteries were taken literally and the inner mystery teachings almost obliterated... it often seems as if there is no alternative once they cease to make sense..

Yes I must admit that this is the way that I have gone. I managed not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and like Ocean (posting elewhere) embarked on a quest of exploring different religions and so on. But at the core of all this were deep mystical experiences both within and outside of christianity, tending as you say to more allegorical approaches. Fundamentalism was so bad for me in the end that even on an allegorical note, christian symbols do little for me..but that is a result of my past experiences. If these symbols are not so negative for any of you, then perhaps some forms of Christian Gnosticism are worth exploring. For me, Meister Eckhart remains one of the most interesting Christian thinker/mystics.

Originally Posted by wayfaring

Yes I must admit that this is the way that I have gone. I managed not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and like Ocean (posting elewhere) embarked on a quest of exploring different religions and so on. But at the core of all this were deep mystical experiences both within and outside of christianity, tending as you say to more allegorical approaches. Fundamentalism was so bad for me in the end that even on an allegorical note, christian symbols do little for me..but that is a result of my past experiences. If these symbols are not so negative for any of you, then perhaps some forms of Christian Gnosticism are worth exploring. For me, Meister Eckhart remains one of the most interesting Christian thinker/mystics.

I think one of the greatest losses (and I don't mean personaly for you...but just a loss for the majority) is that the focus is on diety and not on the message.. I believe what made Jesus's teachings so unique is that they publicly promoted exloration of the inner mysteries... where as prior to that they were a closly gaurded secret... Its everywhere in the Parables and teachings attributed to him... If one reads the Red Ink portion of scripture they will find the same ideas and thoughts expressed right here on this forum..the only difference being the terminology and wording of the time.. thus all the references to let those that have eyes see.... Christianity and its emphasis that its all is based on the acceptance of diety by organized religion... leads one away from the message as well as the illusion.... a modern example would be Meister Eckhart that you mentioned..... truly a great Christian Thinker...however if there was to be a modern version of the council of Nicea...Lets call it the Council of Pittsburg.. and they decided that Meister Eckhart was a diety and churchs were founded around him and wars fought over weither he was the true son of god.... would not all the great thought provoking work he has done be turned away from as people wrestle with the plausabilty of him actually being a diety??
It seems you understand this very very well with your refernece to not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.... Its a pleasure to meet you, and to share these thoughts.....

Dear souls please give me some of your thoughts on my problem I have with the whole thithing and guilt thing as I tried to explain....i would appreciate any because I still am bothered.......

Originally Posted by sweetpatience

PLease may I bend your ear with my problem dear souls.......I sufferer from depression many years......also lonelyness so I took refuge in christian tv.....it made me feel somewhat better sometimes cause i didn't have time to go to church and I like to hear about Jesus......I go to church sometimes....here's what hurt me so......I am allways suffering with money problems cause I never have enough to pay bills food etc....I get by paycheck to paycheck......then I was told by the christian church that I was robbing God by not giving him his 10 per cent and I was cursed......I should have enough faith and trust in God to give him my money(his money) and he will supply my needs ......so theres the problem.....I'am left feeling guilty all the time but ....One church said if I don't give my 10 per cent to find a different church.............some help me not feel like a theif...does God still Love me?

Anyone telling you that you can ever rob God is a buffoon (thats not to say they cannot redeem themselves or have no worth but they are twisting the truth to the detriment of the whole which makes them an idiot) and not worth listening too, how can you rob God? God is everything. The church can be corrupt but the essential messages are worth working with - my way of thinking now is that my whole life is church so i don't bother with a building or priest to bring God into my life, i just appreciate the amazing show that is put on for my enjoyment, all parts of it. God wants you to be as happy as you can be, God is bountiful and doesn't want anyone to want for anything, do not be afraid to ask God for what you want without guilt or shame, if your intentions are good and loving there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Some Christians are weird, Christ had one new commandment to remember "Love thy neighbour as you would love yourself and love God" that was it, ignore any "christian" that doesn't apply this rule only, its the only one Christians were given by Christ, and it seems to be the most forgotten.

Take a look at the gospel of Thomas "you will know the kingdom when you discard your robes of guilt and shame and dance naked like children" Jesus said this - do not feel guilty and if you do ask God - who will forgive anything, for forgiveness and accept this forgiveness - God is in your heart, "the kingdom is within" Jesus again. Do you really believe that God would not want you to be happy and fulfilled, that (s)he would ask for money that you cannot afford? The answer is NO, NO, NO. Do you think Jesus would go to a church such as the one you have mentioned and listen to the words spoken to you without questioning what was said to you, without standing in your corner, what would jesus say if someone said these things to a friend of his?

"The secret" is well worth a watch too www.thesecret.tv or you might be able to see it free on google video chapter by chapter "the secret - chapter 1" , "the secret - chapter 2" etc. Its all in the way you feel, stop thinking about debt and start thinking about what you would like in your life and stay open to receiving good things and appreciating them, give thanks for the good things and more will come your way, this is what God wants - to give you everything you want, just like a father to his child.

Hope this helps, as someone who had the same struggle with guilt i can tell you that you can do Gods work far better if you are not struggling with debt, guilt, fear of self expression and too many rules. There is only one rule "Love thy neighbour as yourself" and would you ever curse your neighbour for having a joyful life??