Truth takes no prisoners

[Gem]

Originally Posted by movingalways

"Emptiness is form, form is emptiness." ~ The Buddha

I'm not sure that is actually a quote from Buddha. It probably refers the the Heart Sutra, which I'm guessing recites the words of Avalokiteshvara, but philosophically, I'm a Pali Canon purist, so I don't know much outside that.

[Ewwerrin]

Maybe, by this, it is ment that form is energy. And empty in that sense. And formless. And inseperable from all one one all ness.

[iamthat]

Regarding "Emptiness is form, form is emptiness", maybe it is a standard Buddhist interpretation to consider this in terms of impermanence.

But I am not a Buddhist so I interpret this as meaning that there is a state of Being pervading all form, and the nature of this Being is unchanging emptiness, devoid of all qualities.

Impermanence does not come into it. There is just emptiness within which all forms arise.

Peace

[movingalways]

Originally Posted by iamthat

All form originates from formlessness and returns to formlessness. Formlessness pervades all form. But form does not pervade all formlessness.
There are states of Being, states of formlessness, where form does not exist.

Peace

1. How do you know this if there is no form arising to confirm formlessness?

2. 'States' implies aware of form.

[movingalways]

Joe Mc: But if and when you stick around you begin to see the enquiry in the form of meditation at least brings a Revelation. Things are Revealed rather than created by the mind, something is revealed beyond and also through the mind and emotions. That which is seen has been there all along or it hasn't been anywhere all along, so now it is difficult to describe without limitation what you have seen what has been uncovered IS. So I've heard a good few people talk about dropping stuff away in meditation as opposed to acquiring new dispositions etc.

Whatever is revealed or acquired or dropped is impermanent. Back to my original post.

[movingalways]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

While it may work for a time, (these concepts always do) won't the fact you seek the permanent by going to the next level and saying the permanent is impermanent itself eventually fall by the wayside the way so many other concepts intended to be 'permanent' always seem to?

I didn't use the concepts 'the permanent' or 'the impermanent' as if they are things, rather, I used the concept 'impermanent/impermanence'. It may seem as if I'm nitpicking, but there is a big difference between suggesting 'this thing AND that thing' and a nondual understanding of a spiritual concept. Having said this, yes, I believe I get what you are suggesting, and yes, every concept believed to be permanent must fall by the wayside. The way I look at it is that as long we we realize that our concepts are impermanent, we won't fall into the trap of clinging to or identifying with them.

I have found that witnessing impermanence is a compassionate way to be.

[movingalways]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Impermanence does not come into it. There is just emptiness within which all forms arise.

What arises, falls. Arising, falling = awareness of impermanence.

[Ewwerrin]

Originally Posted by movingalways

Whatever is revealed or acquired or dropped is impermanent. Back to my original post.

Its impermanence is what makes it permanent. But impernance is still a concept of time. Newness doesn't require change/time to exist as the uniqueness of existence is existence itself.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by movingalways

Whatever is revealed or acquired or dropped is impermanent. Back to my original post.

'Revealed' and 'Acquired' have completely different connotations I think. I say revealed and you say acquired. And that which is seen has no limitations, it's not confinable
to a word like impermanence, or permanence, revealed, acquired. Although I think revealed is more accurate in this case as it conforms to higher stages of Samadhi and consciousness
as described by many teachers and traditions, moving beyond the monkey mind as such.

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[Ewwerrin]

Yeah, you mean like going with the flow, right? Losing sense of self and blending with the whole.