Intriguing "scientific" study on Mystical Experiences

[Still_Waters]

As I discovered during my near death experience many many years ago, there is a perspective whereby one can explore and VERIFY things far beyond the realm of the five senses and the very limited thinking faculties.

This may seem incredulous to some so I will start the dialogue by presenting a very interesting study conducted in as scientific a manner as possible considering the subjective nature of mystical experiences. I would be interested in hearing any comments on this study whose opening statement is:

"A category of human experience has been reported in the writings of philosophers and mystics since antiquity (Combs, 2003; Hanson,1991; Stace, 1960). It goes by many names, including: nondual awareness, enlightenment, mystical experience, transcendental experience, the peace that passeth understanding, unity consciousness, union with God, and so forth (Levin & Steele, 2005; MacDonald, 2000; Thomas & Cooper, 1980). "

This category of human experience is more prevalent than one would suspect and, in this study, extensive interviews were conducted with such people who are generally very quiet since most people would not understand or relate to this phenomenon.

This paper was recommended to me by a new Khazakhstan friend, who lives in Japan and is working on a master's paper in psychology online at the University of Leicester on the benefits of meditation. She sent me a link to this very intriguing, well-written paper (24 pages) on a Continuum of PNSE (Persistent Non-Symbolic Experiences) in Adults. Despite the name, it's essentially about interviews with adults who are awakening and it describes the various stages (author uses the word "locations" or groupings so as not to imply that one stage is superior to another) in the continuum of awakening. It notes that some of the people interviewed thought that their experiences might be indicative of mental illness (disassociation, etc.) and discovered that therapy was not helpful. If you don't have time or interest to read the whole paper, there is a pretty good summary at the end of the paper.

https://digitalcommons.ciis.edu/cgi/...t=conscjournal

Terminology used by participants varied depending on their background.

"How that something else was reported often related to their religious or spiritual tradition(s), or lack thereof. For example, Buddhists often referred to a sense of spaciousness while Christians frequently spoke of experiencing a union with God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, depending on their sect. However, each experienced a transformation into a sense of self that seemed larger and less individuated than the one that was experienced previously. Often participants talked about feeling that they extended beyond their body, sometimes very far beyond it."

I'd be curious to hear any comments by members on Spiritual Forums as I'm confident that many of you will relate to much of what has been written here. The investigative methodology is about as "objective" and "scientific" as possible considering the very subjective nature of many mystical experiences.

[HITESH SHAH]

My understanding of brief study of summary .

1. Methods will be more statistical like like sampling /interviewing set of people etc. While statistical methods has its own areas of application , for core science and its principles , it may not be the best method . Understanding & experiencing intrinsic , core , ultimate , final reality may be better approach .
2. We need more than psychological analysis to understand such experiences .
3. The report summary correctly identifies that there is good scope for research in this area in future.
4. It rightly focuses on continuity of such PNSE mystical experience
5. It rightly tries to avoid getting into quantifying spiritual experience.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 2 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Methods will be more statistical like like sampling /interviewing set of people etc. While statistical methods has its own areas of application , for core science and its principles , it may not be the best method .

We need more than psychological analysis to understand such experiences .

You have raised a number of good points.

Getting an appropriate sampling/interviewing set of people is indeed a challenging task for such a study. We agree that "it rightly focuses on continuity of such PNSE mystical experiences" (at least one year). Keep in mind that many potential subjects are understandably reticent to attract attention to themselves, as duly noted in the report. The author's methodology in identifying appropriate willing participants seemed reasonable to me and he noted that many of his participants were referred by those already participating in the study.

How would you have approached the selection of participants differently in this challenging study?

Within the realms of inadequate words/interviews, what further analysis beyond psychological would you have explored? Note that the author sometimes did one or more 6-12 hour interviews with the various participants and also evaluated their condition in the moment from a neuroscience perspective with electrodes to the brain. What would you have preferred to learn more about? Since I am in touch with the author, perhaps he might be willing to provide more analysis along lines that you suggest.


Your suggestion of a "better approach" caught my attention. How would you have proceeded to get more than what was presented regarding "Understanding & experiencing intrinsic , core , ultimate , final reality may be better approach"?

I too liked the way the author "rightly tries to avoid getting into quantifying spiritual experience" with his use of the word "location" as opposed to alternate terminology that might suggest superiority of one "location" over another.

This study reminded me to some degree of William James' classical book, "Varieties of Religious Experiences" but this was based on a lot more intensive interviews than James' classic.

Good comments. Keep 'em coming. Analyzing experiences that clearly have a subjective/cultural element inherent in them is indeed a very challenging task. I'm still pondering whether there is a better way to approach this.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Often participants talked about feeling that they extended beyond their body, sometimes very far beyond it.

This is what I referred to in this post in the Meditation sub-forum. https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...4&postcount=22

Letting go of doership is probably what some call a higher level or expansion of consciousness and the more one lets go, the more expansive it seems but the change is not on the side of consciousness.

My personal experience of this was unbounded. Limitless. Wherever I looked, there I was but that's not even it really because it wasn't from a local perspective of "me looking". Another way to say it is I wasn't moving through the world, the world - including the mind-body complex that is JASG - was moving through a non-local and impersonal "I".

Of course language can't even begin to do justice but it's all we have.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I'd be curious to hear any comments...

Aw, how nice science is catching up.

[FallingLeaves]

im not so keen on it, having found that any time something I'm doing gets accepted by mainline society I get kicked out of the club.

Guess now I've gotta find some other schtick.

Sigh.

[Busby]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

"A category of human experience has been reported in the writings of philosophers and mystics since antiquity (Combs, 2003; Hanson,1991; Stace, 1960). It goes by many names, including: nondual awareness, enlightenment, mystical experience, transcendental experience, the peace that passeth understanding, unity consciousness, union with God, and so forth (Levin & Steele, 2005; MacDonald, 2000; Thomas & Cooper, 1980). "



.

An explanation of this collective human experience is what has driven me along in my search for the past decades.

Having experienced a number (16) of varied and impossible to explain moments they, (the experiences), have given me cause to delve deeply into all possible facets of 'the why'. Now, as an old man with death just around the corner I realise there is not much which I can still do that will, in any way, reveal any possible 'secrets'.
There are a couple of things which seem to me to be not only possible but obvious. I understand how those systems of beliefs we call religion have arisen while the mundane has been left to grow fallow and the resulting consequences are only now - thanks mainly to logical thought in science - beginning to be added to human comprehension.

It ha long been a conviction of mine that the answers we are all looking for lie dormant in that which we call 'the paranormal'. A seemingly impossible field in which to explore yet one which again and again gives us food for thought.

In a nutshell: Life is totally weird, It just cannot be but it is. This alone offers a promise of something which we cannot, as yet, comprehend. The symbolic blooming of the lotus flower is one wothwhile retaining in the mind.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

...However, each experienced a transformation into a sense of self that seemed larger and less individuated than the one that was experienced previously. Often participants talked about feeling that they extended beyond their body, sometimes very far beyond it."
...

Experiencing "that they extended beyond their body" suggests a perception distorted by their beliefs and expectations, conscious and unconscious, which correlates with their experiencing being dependent on their religious convictions (shouldn't be).

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 2 EXCERPT:

How would you have approached the selection of participants differently in this challenging study?

Within the realms of inadequate words/interviews, what further analysis beyond psychological would you have explored?

What would you have preferred to learn more about?

Your suggestion of a "better approach" caught my attention. How would you have proceeded to get more than what was presented regarding "Understanding & experiencing intrinsic , core , ultimate , final reality may be better approach"?

Participants dead or live can be selected based on their life works (like books , known acts of nobility /philanthropy / bravery etc) & visualizations . Dead persons can be consulted through their life works understanding contemporary history/geography .

While statistical approach is useful in many scenarios but field of science and principles is not the primary domain of statistics . e.g. When Wright brothers first visualized that humans can fly like bird using fuel combustion to produce mechanical energy which can flush air weight more than the machine in which humans can seat for flying - they were the first original pioneers . There was no statistical study on human flying. Known statistical wisdom at that time was that humans can not fly . They through their sheer handwork , conviction and intelligence created aircraft and convinced all that humans can fly by knowing , understanding and following the design of nature/reality /God (as i may put it) . And then that belief enhanced over more than century has made the world a smaller village now . So if we think of wright brothers case , they would not have created an air craft had they believed only in age old statistical belief.

So while conducting such study our focus should be how understanding & experiencing intrinsic , core , ultimate , final reality to improve the experience of all the persons involved directly or indirectly.

Normally people use following zen proverb to describe the mundane reality of spirituality.

Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water

However unintentional impact of it is that it undermine the value of spirituality as of insignificance for ignorant readers. Such studies should uncover improvement in experience of mundane life for people with genuine spiritual beliefs without too much bothering about statistics.

Further such studies should back it up with more historical examples at individual and group levels because History is His story and His story is infallible .

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 4 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

This is what I referred to in this post in the Meditation sub-forum. https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...4&postcount=22


My personal experience of this was unbounded.

Of course language can't even begin to do justice but it's all we have.

I had you in mind specifically when I wrote that some of the posters here should be able to relate to the study that I had just posted.

I remember your post well and, as I recall, I provided the link to it in my subsequent post since I considered it to be "must reading" in its entirety, as this post is as well.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...32&postcount=4

One of my intentions in starting this thread was to provide additional information to skeptical others that such "locations" are quite possible and more common than most would suspect. However, as the study indicates, the people interviewed in the study are generally very very quiet for the obvious reason that most people won't relate to this and some therapists actually considered such experiences to be indicators of mental illness (disassociation, etc.).

Great post! I was actually expecting to hear from you on this thread.