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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #111  
Old 29-08-2021, 08:48 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Originally Posted by Altair
I agree, post 104 is excellent.
Also my worry, the decline of religion leaves a vacuum for secular ideologies to fill the void.
Thank you

Take a look at what's happening with the COVID situation, probably THE most polarising subject on the planet right now. Mask or no mask? The choice to protect yourself or not is entirely yours, if you've made your choice over conspiracy theories or medical advice and to risk infection or not then that's fine and dandy. But if the choice to not wear a mask is the choice to infect someone else, even a number of people? And if I see you not wearing a mask do I have the right to inflict my own personal Fascism on you to cater for what I might perceive as the lack of your morality?

If religion had the same influence on people today, would you be wearing a mask because it's the right thing to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
At least religions/spirituality try to achieve something greater. Secular ideologies are hyper rational, as the personal and mythical is sacrificed at the altar of logic and math. Humans are a religious species and technology and empty secular 'values' can't replace that or root it out.
Religion is an entropic system - the physical Universe is an entropic system, meaning that it's heading into chaos and collapse. Entropy is one of the laws of thermodynamics and is the degree of disorder or uncertainty in a system - like a belief system. Organised religion is slowly descending into chaos as the system loses momentum. Spirituality is heading the same way and a good example of the uncertainty is the word 'Karma'. In the original Sanskrit Karma was 'action' and nothing more, and today it's become reward/punishment mentality for many.

How much entropy is happening on this thread? Buddha said hat we should question everything, even what he said, because taking things for granted or gospel is not the Path to Enlightenment.

Thing is Altair, if we ourselves are our Spirituality? What if Spirituality is not a 'thing' but an aspect of ourselves? I read an article a few years back about the so-called 'God gene', and while I didn't take that as gospel it gave me food for thought.
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  #112  
Old 29-08-2021, 08:58 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice
I would look more at "ignorance" than any particular concept of sin.
Ooh, lovely can of worms. Which ignorance are you talking about? There is nescience, which for simplicity means one doesn't have access or has never come across the information so there's no intention or 'filtering'. That makes me a sinner because I don't go seeking and sucking down whatever ideologies I can get my hands on. Then there is what we have come across but the ignorance is intentional and often that can be relative to one's own agenda.
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  #113  
Old 29-08-2021, 09:26 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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I think we come from different perspectives, Greenslade. You say religion and spirituality are declining and going away, replaced with this 'God gene' materialism. What I believe is that there is no such thing as linear process, there is only the illusion of it if we take a beginning point and an end point, say the year 500 compared to the year 1500.

I believe belief systems and ideologies are cyclical, and tied in with the economic status of a civilization and whether the answers given are satisfactory for the people in that time period. Just as peace and conflict come and go, but cannot be eradicated. Everything that grows carries the seed of its own destruction, but the process just repeats itself. There is no true linearity. I believe this also happens on a universal level, from one universe into another.

The ''Fall from Paradise'' may happen continuously and indefinitely.
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  #114  
Old 29-08-2021, 10:11 AM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I think we come from different perspectives, Greenslade. You say religion and spirituality are declining and going away, replaced with this 'God gene' materialism.
I didn't take the 'God gene' too seriously but it did provide some mind fodder for a short while. I just find things interesting, sometimes.

Eastern religion is largely based on the Rig Vedas, the Upanishads, the Baghavad Gita and a couple more - they form the basis of everything else that comes after. In Advaita Vedanta we are Atman and therefore Brahman and their 'Not Two' is so-called non-Duality. Dvaita Vedanta says something different entirely and both have the same sources.

How many people on this forum know that Karma means 'action?' How many threads on Karma have you spent time on and what has been said? Jung based his model of the self on the Sanskrit Atman/Atma, yet how many people insist that psychology has no place in Spirituality and then come up with their own definitions and never once mention Atma? Or Ahamkara instead of ego?

The facts are that religion is in decline in the west and churches are emptying, compared to what they were years ago. Statistics has the numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
What I believe is that there is no such thing as linear process, there is only the illusion of it if we take a beginning point and an end point, say the year 500 compared to the year 1500.
I would say the the beginning point for Eastern religion is the Rig Vedas, etc, because everything has come from those books - Vedanta means 'the end of the Vedas' and there were numerous schools of Vedanta. For religion in the West it would be the Bible, and this thread is an example of how keen people are willing to delve into its history. And that's an observation, not a criticism. Spirituality in today's format probably comes from the hippies and the bands who made having their own personal Eastern gurus popular. Yes, Eastern religion was practiced before then in the West but it was fairly 'niche', simply because fewer people had access to it and Christianity was dominant.

Going back into history, it's very likely that Mr Caveman was Spiritual/religious, even to building massive stone structures when survival would have been paramount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I believe belief systems and ideologies are cyclical, and tied in with the economic status of a civilization and whether the answers given are satisfactory for the people in that time period.
Spirituality/religion has waxed and waned over the years, pre-Renaissance the Roman Catholic church had a vice-like grip on Europe and was systematically wiping out 'Pagan' cultures. It's been in decline ever since and now we have so many different 'flavours' of Christianity. But yes, religion waxes and wanes to the beat of the culture at the time and that has many different factors. Religions have waxed and waned as empires have come and gone - it's also likely that God came from the Persian Zarathustra when the region was a part of its empire.

"Every religion was right for that people at that time" and I'd go so far as to say that religion/Spirituality reflects the people/culture - there's a symbiotic relationship going on there. But what is being reflected today?
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  #115  
Old 29-08-2021, 10:43 AM
The Cobbler's Apprentice The Cobbler's Apprentice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Ooh, lovely can of worms. Which ignorance are you talking about? There is nescience, which for simplicity means one doesn't have access or has never come across the information so there's no intention or 'filtering'. That makes me a sinner because I don't go seeking and sucking down whatever ideologies I can get my hands on. Then there is what we have come across but the ignorance is intentional and often that can be relative to one's own agenda.

Really, not giving myself any airs and graces, I have a more holistic way of thinking/being. I don't tend to dissect like that.

Ignorance is ignorance. Just simply being engulfed by our conditioning of our particular time and place and then living a reactive, knee jerk life, eventually becoming "satisfied". The unexamined life.
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  #116  
Old 29-08-2021, 02:33 PM
Greenslade Greenslade is offline
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Originally Posted by The Cobbler's Apprentice
Really, not giving myself any airs and graces, I have a more holistic way of thinking/being. I don't tend to dissect like that.
I tend to look at the different parts individually and see how they relate to the other parts - sum of the parts, etc. For me there's a huge difference between no access/nescience and the arrogance of ignorance.
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  #117  
Old 29-08-2021, 03:08 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I believe belief systems and ideologies are cyclical, and tied in with the economic status of a civilization and whether the answers given are satisfactory for the people in that time period.


The ''Fall from Paradise'' may happen continuously and indefinitely.
So true but I doubt we'll ever see that. That would require collapse of one's economy. Religion is classified nonprofit. If there were poverty and hardships it would probably even be seen as we're being punished and there would be more preaching and association to religion and it would again grow. I mean religions were shaped out of poverty and hardship and simply defined by culture. Yet, it will not be the current generation that would make any change we predict it would the next generation that would bring religion back. We won't know about it, we're gone. Who knows what our children will do. What you mention is a wild card and I've thought about this to.
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  #118  
Old 29-08-2021, 03:15 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Originally Posted by lemex
I mean religions were shaped out of poverty and hardship and simply defined by culture.

I am not so sure. I suppose they gain in popularity during hardship, but many religions started with individuals having ''a realization''. Said person than gains a following - apostles, devotees, monks -, than they preach the message to the masses. Over time, due to the structures in any civilization, the teachings become formalized and official religion. A religion in turn gives meaning and a sense of purpose to a larger group, to a civilization itself.

Humans are always going to be a religious species: the appeal to something transcendent, the need for storytelling and meaning, a desire to achieve a state of no suffering.
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  #119  
Old 29-08-2021, 04:00 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Humans are always going to be a religious species: the appeal to something transcendent, the need for storytelling and meaning, a desire to achieve a state of no suffering.
I 100% agree. But think about it, think how life was. Life in ancient time was so primitive, cruel, and harsh so much so I can see why it was thought we were punished and how we could make up stories it was. Imagine this from today. If they lived today, well no such stories. The things you do today you would never be allowed to do back then. And we miss this, all religions and systems everyone follows today are from thousands of years ago. These people are gone, even from civilizations that no longer exist. It cannot be uncreated. But religion created at that time fit the era. If it is negative it is merely a mirror, is it not This was mentioned about.
Quote:
... it is also likely that God came from the Persian.....
There is no likely. Definitely possible. Even other concepts we use today are Persian adopted and adapted. This was great insight.

We are talking about something that is 2 thousands years ago, different time, different place, different people, then there is that version that is 4 thousand years old, again different time, different place, different people; then versions that are earlier then 4 thousand years, again different time, different people, different place. And just as they borrowed, we borrow as mentioned above.

Here's something I feel we must understand, we will use the most current version because just as before it is tied to civilization albeit current. The concept remains the same civilization moves the story. Hope this clarifies what I meant. I would ask wouldn't the concept on now be more important then then.

Last edited by lemex : 29-08-2021 at 06:23 PM.
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  #120  
Old 29-08-2021, 04:17 PM
The Cobbler's Apprentice The Cobbler's Apprentice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
I tend to look at the different parts individually and see how they relate to the other parts - sum of the parts, etc. For me there's a huge difference between no access/nescience and the arrogance of ignorance.

Obviously no problems, there's more than one way of skinning a cat (or is it swinging......or is it killing.....) You said a "can of worms" so now you have "access" to, "nescience" of, judgement of ( "arrogance" ) I have ignorance of Reality.

Maybe I just have a lazy mind, I've always been a bit of a couch potato.

You can add up the parts
But you won't have the sum
You can strike up the march
There is no drum
Every heart, every heart
To love will come
But like a refugee

(Lines from "Anthem" by Leonard Cohen)

It works better with the pink flamingos.

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