Correlation between meditation and physical body

[LYACMT]

I once watched a video named Spiritual Reality made by Indian masters years ago. In a section of this video, it introduces and explains the great healing efforts that meditation contributes to the physical body. I believe it is true, but when I communicate with practitioners of meditation, I find out a truth that not all the practitioners are free from physical disorders, and the percentage of meditation practitioners who's got physical disorders is not low, some of them even carry the physical problems for years. After meditation for years, the physical problems are still there. So I came out that there must be something wrong. So I dug into this field and also compared the breath-focused method of meditation with the meditative technique from ancient China and I find out the difference and the most possible reason to this question.

The key point as to whether one person has physical disorders or not is the energy level WITHIN the body. (To better understand, let's bring two conceptions: body energy and cosmic energy.).The way that meditation increase the energy level within the body is to adsorb energy from universe. After research and with experience of myself and others, I came to know that this is true. It can be done. A person is able to absorb cosmic energy into their body, BUT, only a few persons are able to actually connect with cosmic energy and actually absorb them into their body and further clear the physical disorders, the percentage is very small, and it can be done only when this person gets into the Samadhi state or similar (I'm not quite sure the name of that state in English), even though, sometimes, the time in that state is too short and not stable. That could be the main reason why a large number of breath-focused meditation practitioners are still with physical problems after years of meditation, simply because they are not able to connect and absorb the cosmic energy into their body.

On the contrary, the meditative technique from ancient China starts from increasing the body energy in the first place, and then, when the energy within the body become strong enough clearing all the physical disorders, it will be much easier for a person to actually connect with cosmic energy and go further as the same way as meditation(for example, the Astral travel), cause a sound physical and energy basis has already been established.

Simply speaking, breath-focused meditation starts aiming at a comparatively higher goal, taking longer time and less achievable, and the meditative technique from ancient China starts aiming at a comparatively lower or easier achieving goal which is more suitable for common people, and both ways leads to the same destination.

So what is the corelation between meditation and physical body? Is it a deeper meditation leads to a better physical body, or is it a better physical body leads to a deeper meditation? which way?

[iamthat]

An interesting question. A few random thoughts in response.

Firstly, when you refer to "breath-focused meditation" do you mean the simple practice of meditating on the inward breath and outward breath? As opposed to pranayama practices where we breathe in certain ways for certain counts to bring about particular physical effects. Because pranayama can certainly increase physical energy and strengthen the physical body. But while ordinary breath meditation is good for relaxation and focus I am not sure if it is an effective gateway to cosmic energy.

In Raja Yoga there are eight stages, and the third and fourth stages are asana (physical postures) and pranayama (breathing techniques). The purpose of these two stages is simply to make the physical body healthier and enable us to sit comfortably in meditation for extended periods. So these practices are a means to an end and not an end in themselves.

And so there are Yogis who have very strong bodies, even into a very old age. But when we look at well-known teachers we find that many of them had all sorts of health problems. Perhaps because they place less emphasis on the physical body?

The traditional Chinese approach does seem to focus more on raising the Qi energy in the body, increasing physical vitality and physical functioning. And as the Qi is raised from the lower centre (navel) to the middle centre (chest) to the upper centre (head) so it is transmuted into finer energy.

So regarding the correlation between meditation and the physical body, it is certainly easier to meditate if the body is healthy and flexible. And those who embrace meditation will probably also choose a healthier lifestyle. But there are many types of meditation practices, and not all of them are concerned with the physical body.

Which may not answer your question but it may generate further comment.

Peace

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by LYACMT

... Simply speaking, breath-focused meditation starts aiming at a comparatively higher goal, taking longer time and less achievable, and the meditative technique from ancient China starts aiming at a comparatively lower or easier achieving goal which is more suitable for common people, ...

So what is the corelation between meditation and physical body? Is it a deeper meditation leads to a better physical body, or is it a better physical body leads to a deeper meditation? which way?

Your conclusion makes sense to me, although I see it from a different perspective.

The physical body is a reflection of your inner state. Consciousness is primary, and matter is secondary. There isn't a duality consciousness / matter. There are no situations in which existence is determined by matter; only by consciousness.

So, the state of your physical-body mirrors the state of you psyche.

Meditation is a method of altering your state of consciousness. It is a tool, even if some people consider it something in itself. It should be treated as a means to an end, and not as an end in itself.

Meditation, as sleep, daydreaming, drugs, hypnosis, and other method, alters your state of consciousness as compared to the awake state, a.k.a. it puts you in a trance. Through relatively slow and inefficient methods as meditation and energy work, it is significantly easier to achieve a light trance, and more difficult to attain deeper levels of trance.

Depending on what your intention is, why you want to get into a trance, a lighter or a deeper level is optimum. For example, for anesthesia a deeper level is required. For passing your conscious intentions as goals to your subconscious a lighter trance is better because you keep a better contact with your conscious thinking.

When ill, there is an inner psyche reason that manifests as illness of your physical-body. You can pass to your subconscious your intention to get healed, and you'll get a temporary reprieve, or you can work with your subconscious to identify the psychic reason and address it, usually an unconscious belief or a habit.

Your finding that the Chinese way of meditation is better for the physical-body condition than the deeper mediation, makes sense, because the purpose and the effect is of achieving a light trance faster, so the healing process kicks in sooner and lasts longer. In the deeper mediation case, because you feel that the goal is deeper, you don't take advantage of the potential, for your health goal, of going through light trance.

The misconception that the meditation heals you is counterproductive. What heals you is your intention communicated to your subconscious.

When you get into deeper mediation you lose the awareness of your conscious self goals, e.g. to be physically healthy. So, basically you don't communicate to your subconscious what you want; you missed the opportunity offered through the light trance states.

[LYACMT]

Hi, iamthat, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Originally Posted by iamthat

when you refer to "breath-focused meditation" do you mean the simple practice of meditating on the inward breath and outward breath?

Yes, I think this a simple but very wise way to connect with your subconsciousness cause breath is the only thing on human body that one's consciousness (when you awake) and subconsciousness (when you fall asleep) are both able to control. So it could work as a bridge between the two. In our ways in China, we also know the importance of breath in many types of practises. It really works.

Originally Posted by iamthat

I am not sure if it is an effective gateway to cosmic energy.

I believe it is an effective way to connect with cosmic energy, but not that efficient. Only few person is able to do that as I explained.

Originally Posted by iamthat

.... The purpose of these two stages is simply to make the physical body healthier and enable us to sit comfortably in meditation for extended periods. So these practices are a means to an end and not an end in themselves.

Of course, I feel the same.

Originally Posted by iamthat

.....But when we look at well-known teachers we find that many of them had all sorts of health problems. Perhaps because they place less emphasis on the physical body?

well, as stated in my thread, "The key point as to whether one person has physical disorders or not is the energy level WITHIN the body." So the energy in their body must be at a lower level that's why they had all sorts of health problems. But why at a lower level after many years of practise? my guessing is that their practise may consume a lot of their energy rather than nurturing and cultivation.
I once read a research by the evolutionary anthropologist from the university of cambridge saying that human brain has the priority to take and consume the energy from its body over the other parts of body, and the brain accounts for only 2% in weight but consume normally more than 20% of the overall energy of one's body, in extreame condition, the percentage may goes up to more than 60%. So I assume that their practise may include a lot of strong brain activities and at the same time lacking of practises for nurturing and cultivation. That could also be the reason that many meditation practitioners told me that they feel exhausted after meditation. The more meditation, the more exhausted. Maybe they feel joy when meditate, but their energy goes away at the same time. Being lack of energy in the body continuously for a period of time, meridian blockage shows up and physical problem happens. That is also one of the primary reason that we need to empty our mind from any distracting thoughts when we do the practise of sittings in China. But on the contrary, I noticed that some practises of meditation require people to fabricate images or things in their mind intentionally, that is absolutely a consumption of energy rather than nurturing and cultivation. Maybe those teachers as you mentioned are in consumption category of practise.
Pranayama does help in energy recovery of course, but in my understanding, it seems limited comparing with the huge consumption.
Asana also helps in clearing meridian blockages by special physical postures. My understanding about asana is that those postures lead or force the body energy goes to certain parts of the body making the meridian system of the body become smooth and with no obstacles, which is really good. In China we also have similar practises, like Taichi, just similar. But at the same time I think we need to notice that those postures also consume energy. That could be the reason why asana and pranayama belongs to the same series of Raja Yoga.

Originally Posted by iamthat

The traditional Chinese approach does seem to focus more on raising the Qi energy in the body, increasing physical vitality and physical functioning. And as the Qi is raised from the lower centre (navel) to the middle centre (chest) to the upper centre (head) so it is transmuted into finer energy.

Talking about the traditional way in China, maybe there is a kind of practise that doing the way like you said, but actually we dont do that which means we dont intentionally LEAD our energy to going in a certain path, if we do that, there will be a great chance to make mistakes and causing physical problems. I met several meditation practitioners who's got a headache or feel there is something in their head making them feel very uncomfortable, and for years they can not get rid of it. That is because they made mistakes unintentionally lead the energy gets into the head and stuck there.

Well, I wrote many, hope the words are in logic and grammatically correct.

[LYACMT]

Hi inavalan, glad to see your unique perspective.

Originally Posted by inavalan

the state of your physical-body mirrors the state of you psyche.

Absolutely true. Similarly in China, we have a complete theory for the corelation between physical body and psychological states, different states would cause different physical problems, like anger relates to liver, fear relates to kidneys, etc. The mechanism is when a person gets into the state of angry, a huge amount of their energy will be forced to go to and gathering towards liver, making a jam, if it happens frequently, the jam will not fade away making the energy to get stuck in the meridians around and within liver, then blockages happens and further leads to disease in the liver. Some person with great observation may ask that why the energy gather at liver rather than lung, or kidneys when a person gets angry, cause it is exactly what happens in real, a rule that we discovered generations by generations for more than five thousand years, just like the apple will fall onto the ground and no body knows why untill Mr. Newton show up.

Regarding your unique perspective that illness could be healed via subconscious under a light trance and could not be healed via meditation in which people loose connection with subconscious when they are in deep meditation or deeper trance as you described. I want to quote all your paragraph, but it seems too long which may not be in consistent with the rule of this forum, so I just write directly.

Subconscious do have the power to change the physical conditions of the body. I have no doubt with that which is also the truth like the apple will fall onto the ground. But what is the mechanism that how subconscious heals. It relates to the energy as well, cause subconscious has a strong connection with the body energy. Subconscious works like a command center and the body energy works like troops. So if the subconscious wants to heal a certain part of the body, energy goes there to do the job. then we understand whether a physical issue is able to be healed or not depends on whether the person has strong troops and/or has a strong command center.

Actually, when I wrote Subconscious in the last paragraph what exactly I mean is the Primordial Spirit (actually I can not find any English expressions for the conception that I'm trying to convey, let's just call it Primordial Spirit). The Primordial Spirit of one person controls all the body activities which the mind (conscious) is not able to control (including breath when you fall asleep), e.g. functioning of organs, glandular secretions, etc. How these things work together while the conscious is not able to control? In the traditional practise of China, we believe there must be a command center to control all this kind of activities, and for more than five thousand years of practises, the existance of such command center has been approved and we developed methodologies to enhance both the command center and the troops at the same time. Subconscious could be one of the staff in the command center.

Breath-focused meditation is also able to enhance the ability of the command center, because breath is the bridge between conscious and subconscious, simple but wise. Other types of meditation like image something in the head, they don't have such effort.

In my thread, when I say lower goal and easier to achieve is from the energy point of view. The traditional way of practise in China is easier to make the body energy stronger, so that the physical issues can be cleared and form a sound basis in both physical and energy to support a person to go further on the meditative path. While the breath-focused meditation enhance the ability of the command center, it has less effect to enhance the troops at the beginning stage, only when it come to the time that meditator is able to actually connect with the cosmic energy and adsorb the cosmic energy into their body, then the troops will be enhanced which is less achievable and taking longer time, that's why I said it aims at a comparatively higher goal, especially with physical issues that may distract the peace of mind when meditate.

Anyway, thank you again for sharing your perspective.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by LYACMT

Talking about the traditional way in China, maybe there is a kind of practise that doing the way like you said, but actually we dont do that which means we dont intentionally LEAD our energy to going in a certain path, if we do that, there will be a great chance to make mistakes and causing physical problems.

Indeed, my understanding is that surplus energy created in a lower centre will naturally rise to the next centre and be transmuted without having to consciously guide the process.

But the exception to your comment would be the microcosmic orbit, where energy is first generated through breathing practices and then directed to flow through certain channels, thus forming a circuit. Supposedly if the initial preparation is inadequate then this causes strain on the nervous system and a depletion of energy.

Which is comparable to kundalini practices in Yoga. Without proper preparation and instruction then we may awaken the energy without knowing what to do with it, thus leading to mistakes and causing physical problems.

Peace

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 3 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by inavalan

So, the state of your physical-body mirrors the state of you psyche.


When ill, there is an inner psyche reason that manifests as illness of your physical-body.


The misconception that the meditation heals you is counterproductive. What heals you is your intention communicated to your subconscious.

Excellent insightful post.

In the past, I often wondered why even the great sages became ill ... until I realized ... often through their own words ... that the illness served a very important purpose.

As you duly pointed out, the "intention" of the illness (whether conscious or unconscious) is critical to healing and the intention may actually be to let the illness linger for a purpose that is not always obvious.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by LYACMT

Hi inavalan, ...
Actually, when I wrote Subconscious in the last paragraph what exactly I mean is the Primordial Spirit (actually I can not find any English expressions for the conception that I'm trying to convey, let's just call it Primordial Spirit).
...

What are the Chinese characters for "Primordial Spirit"?

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

As you duly pointed out, the "intention" of the illness (whether conscious or unconscious) is critical to healing and the intention may actually be to let the illness linger for a purpose that is not always obvious.

i would agree with that, letting yourself be 'ill' can be of benefit from what I've seen. In fact I'm starting to wonder if being completely 'healed' is not another of those aberational states, very unlucky in the long run for those who have attained it... as an example, I read once that taoist practitioners eventually got a sweet taste in the mouth... not sure how that relates to soma or if it does but it was still a data point...

anyway these days we are also told that some diabetics get a 'sweet' breath and that is partly how you can tell they are diabetics.

Just coincidence I suppose. Lol.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

...
anyway these days we are also told that some diabetics get a 'sweet' breath and that is partly how you can tell they are diabetics. ...

Your mentioning of a sweetness - diabetes connection reminds a funny scene from "Young Doctors in Love", with Harry Dean Stanton and other recognizable faces:

https://youtu.be/SGGLq_vG1Gc