Crazy Wisdom of the Zen Masters - Playful Fun Koans

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

Zen Master Unmon said: “The world is vast and wide. Why do you put on your robes at the sound of a bell" ?

That's a good one.

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn once identified two types of monks: "correct" monks and "freedom" monks.

The correct monks have a temple and students. They "put on their robes at the sound of a bell". They are very disciplined and have a very structured environment. That reminds me of tree guards that are put around fledgling trees. They serve a purpose but are ultimately not needed.

On the other hand, the freedom monks typically do not have a temple and generally do not have students. If students want to have the teachings of such a teacher to get enlightenment, then they follow their freedom-style master around the "vast and wide" world.

The freedom monks are not limited by societal conventions. They do what they consider to be in the best interests of all as situations develop. Some of their behaviors can be quite upsetting to the structured students of the "correct" monks since they probably do not put on their robes at the sound of the bell.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

I dont know and will continue to not know until I drop 'I'....

That is precisely why I prefer the "not knowing" translation of Bodhidharma's response to the emperor. "I don't know" suggests that there is still a trace of the "I".

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 7 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by inavalan

In the mean time I figured out that those sages weren't modest, humble, but quite full of themselves, smart-asses.

I believe that Bodhidharma told the emperor something like: you have no clue what I am, it is beyond your comprehension. Remember that the first answer was that everything that Emperor thought that was worth praise, according to Bodhidharma's beliefs, it actually wasn't so.

I agree with you that there are many who present themselves as Zen Masters or masters of whatever tradition they espouse but, in actuality, are business people who "weren't modest, humble, but quite full of themselves, smart-asses" as you put it.

It can indeed be very difficult INITIALLY to differentiate between the real and the unreal.

Your interpretation of Bodhidharma's response is quite reasonable. As I've said before, there is no single approved answer/understanding of a koan.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Koans are a method of creating confusion, which is a well-known tool in NLP and hypnosis for inducing trance.

Koans are indeed a method of creating confusion for the intellect and, when the mind reaches an impasse and stops, the "AHA Moment" just happens.

For some, however, they may just remain confused.

[sky]

Originally Posted by sky

Zen Master Unmon said: “The world is vast and wide. Why do you put on your robes at the sound of a bell" ?

I was thinking along the lines of how we act without thought, we hear a familiar sound that we associate with a previous action and react like Robots.
The doorbell/telephone rings, the microwave pings or someone shouts our name or the baby cries and we respond immediately without even thinking....

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky

I was thinking along the lines of how we act without thought, we hear a familiar sound that we associate with a previous action and react like Robots.
The doorbell/telephone rings, the microwave pings or someone shouts our name or the baby cries and we respond immediately without even thinking....

Those are conditioned behaviors. That is why I mentioned the "correct" monks and the "freedom" monks". The correct monks can be very conditioned and thus act like robots. Many temples operate that way. That's why you find correct monks in temples with students. That was my point.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Those are conditioned behaviors. That is why I mentioned the "correct" monks and the "freedom" monks". The correct monks can be very conditioned and thus act like robots. Many temples operate that way. That's why you find correct monks in temples with students. That was my point.

Yes I did see your point but I was referring to us 'Non Monk/Nuns' but we are both on the same path. Conditioning does have it's advantages though sometimes.....

[Still_Waters]

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn once had an intriguing dialogue with an ADVANCED FEMALE DISCIPLE during which he looked at her half-smiling and said: "Women cannot get enlightenment".

At first, she was perplexed by what she considered to be an unbelievable statement but it was clear that he was not joking.

She was understandably upset and followed him as he left the room to question him more regarding that statement.

Finally, he delivered the final concluding line and she was silent as the teaching sank in and she realized that his provocative statement was actually true.

NOTE: Since this is intended to be a FUN thread on crazy wisdom, I'm not going to give Seung Sahn's concluding line to see if anyone can fathom what his teaching point was.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn once had an intriguing dialogue with an ADVANCED FEMALE DISCIPLE during which he looked at her half-smiling and said: "Women cannot get enlightenment".

Who can 'GET' enlightenment .....

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn once had an intriguing dialogue with an ADVANCED FEMALE DISCIPLE during which he looked at her half-smiling and said: "Women cannot get enlightenment". ...

One interpretation: That's a koan, for women. He confused her, so she got in trance, and understood "whatever" inner truth (not a rationalization).

There are other possible interpretations too.