Meditation - Essential to Buddhism

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

I'm sure you are being heard Gem.

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Oops, you beat me to the edit . Lol.



I tidied it up a bit, just to say the same thing a bit better.

Originally Posted by sentient

The preaching:

When the self believes that it is separate from others, then from this self-centeredness the negative emotion (poison) of pride arises in which one arrogantly believes oneself to be in some way better than others.

And from here also arises the belief that we only believe and do the desirable good things, and those undesirable bad things are what others believe in and do. Heh.
One would not think so, but it seems ego-pride does get that childish …

As long as we believe ourselves to be superior to others, it is impossible to learn from others like ……, ……, …., ….., well, the list becomes endless really …. heh.

In the end - we all alone - are "answerable to God” – or it is what we alone do “in the face of Totality” that counts and within this relative, dual good/bad realm/dimension, we learn from everyone and everything if we are open to it ….



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Beautifully said, preach welcome, thanks sentient.

Namaste,
Jl

Originally Posted by Gem

It's not the teachings that concern me, and it's not like I imagine any teacher as a special person, so like everyone and anyone, I assess credibility on the degree of integrity a person demonstrates. If they profess to to a status based on Buddhism, then a basic adherence to sila principles is required, which excludes intoxication and sexual misconduct.


Chodron is Trungpa's protege and member of the sangha, which is good, because she seems to have some integrity, but she resigned her post as a teacher because they appointed a known rapist to the trust.




He can't walk the talk, so to me, it's a lot of empty words.




I can only suggest that if people want go to a school or get involved a the sangha, just make sure sila is the founding principle of the sangha.



At my school, emphasis is placed on mindful equanimity, so we try to be aware of our adverse/craven reactivity as it arises and minimise it as best we can.

To me a person is a person, and a teacher has a role which is respectable, but on what grounds is it respectable?

1) The teacher is giving all their time to the school for the benefit of the meditators expecting nothing in return. That's dana, and Generosity is respectable.

2) To be a teacher, your sila has to be impeccable and it takes many years to meet to meet the position's requirements. Such commitment is respectable.


Trungpas gets sex from his students and becomes rich from their kind donations - no dana. He gets intoxicated and perpetrates sexual misconduct - no Sila. His Trustees are degenerate and people get harmed in the school. No refuge.


Their respecrt is based on that delusion that he's a special enlightened person, and he took advantage of that. Their trust is misplaced and they take refuge where they are taken advantage of.






It's reliably documented - and that's only what was publically told. They were all up to mischief while he was alive, and after he died, and since they just appointed a rapist to the trust, it's reaonable to suspect something fishy is still going on today.




If you don't want people to get harmed, don't promote Trungpa.

I find the whole guru parade to be pretentious on the whole whole, but there are good sorts in the spiritual teacher trade. You just have be very discerning, and my tip is, ensure they are founded securely in principles of sila... (and if the trust re-appoints a rapist whom they know to the trust... well, screw that).



He can't walk the talk, so what he says is worthless. Chodron resigned because any reasonable person wouldn't stand for it.The rest of them support the rapist's appointment... so, I think maybe there might more than one sex fiend in the bunch?



I guess people who admire Trungpa's approach would have a hard time with mine which is ethically founded. You'd be safe enough in a school like mine (but still have to be very discerning). The students aren't sexed even if they wanted it, and because we run on dana, 100% of your donations will be utilised for the benefit of future meditators.

The tales of after Trungpa are indeed disturbing. We don't want that. No-one does.

Trungpa Rinpoche is a realized individual; no doubt about it, in my opinion.

I hear you though, Gem, I hear you. I would never encourage anyone to a school with harm at its core, no Dharma in its Light, no realization in its teacher.

I admire many Theravadan schools where the Buddha's Vinaya is the case, so of course I appreciate and respect sila. I learn from all genuine Buddhist teachers and schools - I only wish that there were more, Gem. The Buddha's Dharma is deep, and profound, full of Light and compassion in the deepest possible sense.

Blessings and thanks, deep thanks,

JL

Pema Chodron interview:

Stories of Trungpa Rinpoche’s sexual encounters with students still upset a lot of people. Have they ever upset you?

No. But he upset me. He upset me a lot. I couldn’t con him, and that was uncomfortable. But it was exactly what I needed. Sometimes, in certain situations, I can see how I’m a con artist, and I can see how I’m just trying to make everything pretty and smooth, and all I have to do is think of Rinpoche and I get honest. He has the effect on me of relentlessly—in a dedicated way—keeping me honest. And that’s not always comfortable.

How did he respond to your choice of celibacy?

He encouraged me to be very strict with my vows.

He never provoked you or needled you about being attached to your vows?

Quite the opposite. He actually was very strict and used to say, “You know people will be watching you, people will watch how you walk, how you move, and you should really represent this tradition well.”

In terms of how to be a nun or monk, his teachings were always very straight, very pure. He needled me about other things. I remember one time saying something to him about feeling that I was a nice person. I used the word “nice,” and I remember the look that crossed his face—it was as if he had just eaten something that tasted really bad. And he would also do this thing, which many students have talked to me about, where you’d be talking on and on in your most earnest style and he’d just yawn and look out the window.


It takes a lot to understand but in my viewpoint, a Buddhist teacher of genuine repute and ability is going to continually cut away at the student's ego, beliefs, self-investment.

This is not the same as what is reported in the recent case (of Trungpa's son) i.e. criminal [I stress that I do not know much of these cases so talk at a high level here only, without fact] - but it is not outside the understanding of a teacher to continually challenge students. In fact, it is their job to do so.

JL

[sentient]

Originally Posted by janielee

Pema Chodron interview:

Stories of Trungpa Rinpoche’s sexual encounters with students still upset a lot of people. Have they ever upset you?

No. But he upset me. He upset me a lot. I couldn’t con him, and that was uncomfortable.

LOL!

Apparently he terrified a lot of people – lol! I can imagine.

Unmasking is never comfortable, but necessary.

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[Gem]

Originally Posted by janielee

The tales of after Trungpa are indeed disturbing. We don't want that. No-one does.

That's how it goes - the master has loose morals so the school is rotten at its core.

Trungpa Rinpoche is a realized individual; no doubt about it, in my opinion.

I hear you though, Gem, I hear you. I would never encourage anyone to a school with harm at its core, no Dharma in its Light, no realization in its teacher.

I'm more about the founding principles of sila. Without that there no foundation for refuge and all is lost, and as we have seen, supposed realised masters aren't necessarily mature in integrity - and then there are people who have no spiritual inklings who are.

I admire many Theravadan schools where the Buddha's Vinaya is the case, so of course I appreciate and respect sila. I learn from all genuine Buddhist teachers and schools - I only wish that there were more, Gem. The Buddha's Dharma is deep, and profound, full of Light and compassion in the deepest possible sense.

That's right indeedy, dhamma is the truth of nature, but dhamma applies to everyone regardless of their traditional background, and I can't glorify anything because even where I love my own school, I have to take the good with the bad, but the good is basically, we only exist to teach dhamma and practice meditation. Alcohol and root the students? How is that going benefit them? We work to create the conditions that benefit others and expect nothing in return.


A spiritual school such as Trungpas was not a respectable institution when he was there and it's not a respectable institution now, and there are many Buddhist schools that are debaucherous. It's not uncommon, so I do not see Buddhism as a brilliant shiny light. People have to be very careful about where they place trust and take refuge. Refuge in the Sangha is a pretty dicey business.

Blessings and thanks, deep thanks,

JL

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

' The easiest way to avoid conflict, just nod and agree. Have no thoughts or opinions or beliefs. '


But in real life that wouldn't work and it is definitely not what Buddha taught.

Yes I agree completely! Well said.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sentient

The preaching:

When the self believes that it is separate from others, then from this self-centeredness the negative emotion (poison) of pride arises in which one arrogantly believes oneself to be in some way better than others.

We are obviously separate from others. I am me and you are you. Even at the absolute level, we are unique points of perception. The term I would use there is "different" but with clarification. We are exactly the same in that we are a consciousness dealing with our thought streams and experiences and conditioning, and our differing bodies and brain chemistries as well, health and all of that, conditions, environments. So we all deal with the same stuff, but the stuff is different. Like my environment is a peaceful suburb in the USA, someone else's could be living in a gang controlled violent town in some other country. I have money for food, somebody else may not.

Being aware we are different entities is not self centeredness. Self centeredness is identification with our conditioned thought streams. Our beliefs, opinions, conditioning, and all of that. Conceptualized experiential reality is not a belief, though it is presented in language which is clearly of a conceptual mentally descriptive form.

Pride is a result of identification with what we have done or with what we are not, like our bodies. When we perceive we are all the same, just dealing with our own individual thoughts streams circumstances etc, then there is no pride. If I am born in a rich successful strong and fast beautiful body, or a poor, unsuccessful weak, deformed and handicapped body, neither defines what I am. If I win Olympic events, or accomplish nothing, it makes no difference. Though I will say there is nothing wrong with feeling pride in things we accomplish. Pride has negative and positive connotations. Positive use of word pride.....I am proud we fed all those homeless... I am proud I did not get mad at that person and yell at them. Negative, I am so much better than that person.

Originally Posted by sentient

And from here also arises the belief that we only believe and do the desirable good things, and those undesirable bad things are what others believe in and do. Heh.
One would not think so, but it seems ego-pride does get that childish …

Mother Teresa and Hitler, one's life resulted in easing the suffering of others, the other's life resulted in the increasing of suffering in others. There are good and bad things and ways to be obviously. One person is a doctor, another is a serial killer. To throw out all discernment or judgement of morality and right conduct is not Buddhism. Right conduct is one of the 8 Noble Truths taught by Buddha. That means there is wrong conduct as well.

Originally Posted by sentient

As long as we believe ourselves to be superior to others, it is impossible to learn from others like ……, ……, …., ….., well, the list becomes endless really …. heh.

One of the biggest mistakes in "spiritual philosophers" is this simplistic idea of non-judgement. Like - "Oh I am spiritual and spiritual people love all and don't judge." God or Karma or whatever you want to call it, yea we are going to be judged on what we do and are big time. Not "judge" in the sense of, oh you are bad, judge in the sense of you are harming of the whole, you are causing suffering in the collective, you create and are a part of negative lower energies. So because you are not harmonious with the whole, the whole has ways to correct that. If you cause suffering in others in some particular way, and have zero compassion for others, zero empathy for others, you will have an incarnation where you suffer at the hands of another. If you are vain, get 500 plastic surgeries, think of yourself as better than others, you may come back in a deformed body, to teach one looks don't define what we are.

There are so many factors we may deal with. Like someone pointed out somewhere, many abusers are themselves abused as children, many violent people were subjected to violence themselves in childhood, some come into a human body with very little spiritual energy so as to give the body and animal natures more influence, for more of a challenge. So we are not judging the consciousness, we are judging what the ego is doing or has done or likes to do. Here again, how is one using that word "superior?" Am I a peaceful person with some compassion and empathy for others superior to a serial killer? To a rapist? Yes.

A peaceful loving kind world is superior to one filled with human created violence towards each other. But yea the individual mentioned, how can I know. One has addictions to alcohol for various causes and reasons. Pain from childhood one is self medicating for. Some body types and brains are more susceptible to alcoholism as it has a heredity component. My grandmother is an alcoholic and was abused by her violent step-father, who also beat his wife, so I understand and don't judge her in a negative way at all. The multiple affairs with married women, from a person of power and "fame" and status...yea a lot of countries have laws against that... no sane person would not want to put an end to someone running around harming others... that's why we have laws and prisons. Courts have found that when a "guru" does those kind of things, it is wrong. I know of one guru who did such things to married followers, some of the women sued him, and the judge awarded the women over a million dollars in damages from the guru's organization.

Originally Posted by sentient

In the end - we all alone - are "answerable to God” – or it is what we alone do “in the face of Totality” that counts and within this relative, dual good/bad realm/dimension, we learn from everyone and everything if we are open to it ….

We will also be "answerable to God” for not making an effort to call out wrong things we see in the world, for not trying to stop harm where we see it, for not protecting others from harm. I have a friend who was abused severely by her step father from age 6 to 17....she has always felt it is wrong to judge others. She forgave her step father and told him so as he was dying in the hospital a few years ago.

She never reported him to the police. Well she told me she has run into a few people from her small town who have told her that her step dad abused them as well.... after she left the town around age 20... There is so much grey area in life.....if she had reported her step father to the police, he would have probably went to jail where he would have suffered. By not reporting him, he continued to abuse others....so they suffered..... what's the right answer? For me, turn him into police.....she says she could not do that to him..... I think the lesson there is the "spiritual idea" of non-judgment is deeper than this surface idea of don't judge anyone.... don't judge in the wrong way of course, don't judge without understanding and compassion, but some judgement is holy, divine, and should be done.

Love and goodness is superior to harming others and causing suffering. Those who do good are superior to those who do bad. But all have the potential to do and be good.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

We are obviously separate from others. I am me and you are you. Even at the absolute level, we are unique points of perception. The term I would use there is "different" but with clarification. We are exactly the same in that we are a consciousness dealing with our thought streams and experiences and conditioning, and our differing bodies and brain chemistries as well, health and all of that, conditions, environments. So we all deal with the same stuff, but the stuff is different. Like my environment is a peaceful suburb in the USA, someone else's could be living in a gang controlled violent town in some other country. I have money for food, somebody else may not.

Being aware we are different entities is not self centeredness. Self centeredness is identification with our conditioned thought streams. Our beliefs, opinions, conditioning, and all of that. Conceptualized experiential reality is not a belief, though it is presented in language which is clearly of a conceptual mentally descriptive form.

Pride is a result of identification with what we have done or with what we are not, like our bodies. When we perceive we are all the same, just dealing with our own individual thoughts streams circumstances etc, then there is no pride. If I am born in a rich successful strong and fast beautiful body, or a poor, unsuccessful weak, deformed and handicapped body, neither defines what I am. If I win Olympic events, or accomplish nothing, it makes no difference. Though I will say there is nothing wrong with feeling pride in things we accomplish. Pride has negative and positive connotations. Positive use of word pride.....I am proud we fed all those homeless... I am proud I did not get mad at that person and yell at them. Negative, I am so much better than that person.



Mother Teresa and Hitler, one's life resulted in easing the suffering of others, the other's life resulted in the increasing of suffering in others. There are good and bad things and ways to be obviously. One person is a doctor, another is a serial killer. To throw out all discernment or judgement of morality and right conduct is not Buddhism. Right conduct is one of the 8 Noble Truths taught by Buddha. That means there is wrong conduct as well.



One of the biggest mistakes in "spiritual philosophers" is this simplistic idea of non-judgement. Like - "Oh I am spiritual and spiritual people love all and don't judge." God or Karma or whatever you want to call it, yea we are going to be judged on what we do and are big time. Not "judge" in the sense of, oh you are bad, judge in the sense of you are harming of the whole, you are causing suffering in the collective, you create and are a part of negative lower energies. So because you are not harmonious with the whole, the whole has ways to correct that. If you cause suffering in others in some particular way, and have zero compassion for others, zero empathy for others, you will have an incarnation where you suffer at the hands of another. If you are vain, get 500 plastic surgeries, think of yourself as better than others, you may come back in a deformed body, to teach one looks don't define what we are.

There are so many factors we may deal with. Like someone pointed out somewhere, many abusers are themselves abused as children, many violent people were subjected to violence themselves in childhood, some come into a human body with very little spiritual energy so as to give the body and animal natures more influence, for more of a challenge. So we are not judging the consciousness, we are judging what the ego is doing or has done or likes to do. Here again, how is one using that word "superior?" Am I a peaceful person with some compassion and empathy for others superior to a serial killer? To a rapist? Yes.

A peaceful loving kind world is superior to one filled with human created violence towards each other. But yea the individual mentioned, how can I know. One has addictions to alcohol for various causes and reasons. Pain from childhood one is self medicating for. Some body types and brains are more susceptible to alcoholism as it has a heredity component. My grandmother is an alcoholic and was abused by her violent step-father, who also beat his wife, so I understand and don't judge her in a negative way at all. The multiple affairs with married women, from a person of power and "fame" and status...yea a lot of countries have laws against that... no sane person would not want to put an end to someone running around harming others... that's why we have laws and prisons. Courts have found that when a "guru" does those kind of things, it is wrong. I know of one guru who did such things to married followers, some of the women sued him, and the judge awarded the women over a million dollars in damages from the guru's organization.



We will also be "answerable to God” for not making an effort to call out wrong things we see in the world, for not trying to stop harm where we see it, for not protecting others from harm. I have a friend who was abused severely by her step father from age 6 to 17....she has always felt it is wrong to judge others. She forgave her step father and told him so as he was dying in the hospital a few years ago.

She never reported him to the police. Well she told me she has run into a few people from her small town who have told her that her step dad abused them as well.... after she left the town around age 20... There is so much grey area in life.....if she had reported her step father to the police, he would have probably went to jail where he would have suffered. By not reporting him, he continued to abuse others....so they suffered..... what's the right answer? For me, turn him into police.....she says she could not do that to him..... I think the lesson there is the "spiritual idea" of non-judgment is deeper than this surface idea of don't judge anyone.... don't judge in the wrong way of course, don't judge without understanding and compassion, but some judgement is holy, divine, and should be done.

Love and goodness is superior to harming others and causing suffering. Those who do good are superior to those who do bad. But all have the potential to do and be good.

How is your book coming along Phaelyn?
The one you have intended to write out of the collection of your posts.

What is the message you wish to convey with your book?

Who is your target audience?

Why did you choose a Buddhist forum as a sounding board to air out your thought processes, your streams of thought (your beliefs, opinions etc) ?

*

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

We are obviously separate from others. I am me and you are you. Even at the absolute level, we are unique points of perception. The term I would use there is "different" but with clarification. We are exactly the same in that we are a consciousness dealing with our thought streams and experiences and conditioning, and our differing bodies and brain chemistries as well, health and all of that, conditions, environments. So we all deal with the same stuff, but the stuff is different. Like my environment is a peaceful suburb in the USA, someone else's could be living in a gang controlled violent town in some other country. I have money for food, somebody else may not.

Being aware we are different entities is not self centeredness. Self centeredness is identification with our conditioned thought streams. Our beliefs, opinions, conditioning, and all of that. Conceptualized experiential reality is not a belief, though it is presented in language which is clearly of a conceptual mentally descriptive form.

Pride is a result of identification with what we have done or with what we are not, like our bodies. When we perceive we are all the same, just dealing with our own individual thoughts streams circumstances etc, then there is no pride. If I am born in a rich successful strong and fast beautiful body, or a poor, unsuccessful weak, deformed and handicapped body, neither defines what I am. If I win Olympic events, or accomplish nothing, it makes no difference. Though I will say there is nothing wrong with feeling pride in things we accomplish. Pride has negative and positive connotations. Positive use of word pride.....I am proud we fed all those homeless... I am proud I did not get mad at that person and yell at them. Negative, I am so much better than that person.



Mother Teresa and Hitler, one's life resulted in easing the suffering of others, the other's life resulted in the increasing of suffering in others. There are good and bad things and ways to be obviously. One person is a doctor, another is a serial killer. To throw out all discernment or judgement of morality and right conduct is not Buddhism. Right conduct is one of the 8 Noble Truths taught by Buddha. That means there is wrong conduct as well.



One of the biggest mistakes in "spiritual philosophers" is this simplistic idea of non-judgement. Like - "Oh I am spiritual and spiritual people love all and don't judge." God or Karma or whatever you want to call it, yea we are going to be judged on what we do and are big time. Not "judge" in the sense of, oh you are bad, judge in the sense of you are harming of the whole, you are causing suffering in the collective, you create and are a part of negative lower energies. So because you are not harmonious with the whole, the whole has ways to correct that. If you cause suffering in others in some particular way, and have zero compassion for others, zero empathy for others, you will have an incarnation where you suffer at the hands of another. If you are vain, get 500 plastic surgeries, think of yourself as better than others, you may come back in a deformed body, to teach one looks don't define what we are.

There are so many factors we may deal with. Like someone pointed out somewhere, many abusers are themselves abused as children, many violent people were subjected to violence themselves in childhood, some come into a human body with very little spiritual energy so as to give the body and animal natures more influence, for more of a challenge. So we are not judging the consciousness, we are judging what the ego is doing or has done or likes to do. Here again, how is one using that word "superior?" Am I a peaceful person with some compassion and empathy for others superior to a serial killer? To a rapist? Yes.

A peaceful loving kind world is superior to one filled with human created violence towards each other. But yea the individual mentioned, how can I know. One has addictions to alcohol for various causes and reasons. Pain from childhood one is self medicating for. Some body types and brains are more susceptible to alcoholism as it has a heredity component. My grandmother is an alcoholic and was abused by her violent step-father, who also beat his wife, so I understand and don't judge her in a negative way at all. The multiple affairs with married women, from a person of power and "fame" and status...yea a lot of countries have laws against that... no sane person would not want to put an end to someone running around harming others... that's why we have laws and prisons. Courts have found that when a "guru" does those kind of things, it is wrong. I know of one guru who did such things to married followers, some of the women sued him, and the judge awarded the women over a million dollars in damages from the guru's organization.



We will also be "answerable to God” for not making an effort to call out wrong things we see in the world, for not trying to stop harm where we see it, for not protecting others from harm. I have a friend who was abused severely by her step father from age 6 to 17....she has always felt it is wrong to judge others. She forgave her step father and told him so as he was dying in the hospital a few years ago.

She never reported him to the police. Well she told me she has run into a few people from her small town who have told her that her step dad abused them as well.... after she left the town around age 20... There is so much grey area in life.....if she had reported her step father to the police, he would have probably went to jail where he would have suffered. By not reporting him, he continued to abuse others....so they suffered..... what's the right answer? For me, turn him into police.....she says she could not do that to him..... I think the lesson there is the "spiritual idea" of non-judgment is deeper than this surface idea of don't judge anyone.... don't judge in the wrong way of course, don't judge without understanding and compassion, but some judgement is holy, divine, and should be done.

Love and goodness is superior to harming others and causing suffering. Those who do good are superior to those who do bad. But all have the potential to do and be good.

I think it will always come down to, 'They know not what they do' and the understanding of how people are compelled by their reactive tendencies. From that perspective the 'cause' makes sense.


This relates to Kamma, which in Buddhist philosophy has to do with the volition, but the volition is incited by reactivity, and reactivity aka craving is desire/aversion with respect to feelings. From 'vedana' the reaction arises, and with the reaction, volition, and such is the root of all unskilled states.

Hence the defining principle of mindfulness is non-volitional observation, or 'to see it as it is', or what JK calls 'choiceless observation'. To see what is true as a plain simple fact, 'it is', without value judgment, but with the ability to discern based on the agitation of the mind 'this is an unskilled state' or 'this is skillful state'.

Hence what they call 'right effort' is a highly nuanced integration of consistent self-awareness, discerning between the skilled and unskilled, understanding the underlying cause, and cultivating equanimity via cessation of reactive agitation. The effort is unique in the sense that it is to recognise the cause and cease doing that, which results in the non-volition aforementioned. People will say, but that's the volition to not react, but this is flawful logic. It is more like how when you notice you are tense in some part of the body, you relax by ceasing the tension you were previously unaware of. You don't actually 'do the not-tensing' intentionally. It happens reflexively when you notice it. Indeed, once noticed, you become aware of the volition it would take to maintain it, which was your 'unconscious volition'. That's the basic fundamental of 'know not what you do'.

This non-volitional state of 'being' enables the contents to rise into conscious awareness, manifest in experience and pass away. Because there is no reaction to it, there is no incitement of volition, and therefore, no kamma is being generated. The outcomes of kamma (volitions) of the past continue arising in experience and pass away, and as such, the old potentials of past generated kamma start to expire whilst no new ones are being generated. That 'emptying out' is what they call 'purification'.

The pure observation or volitionless awareness is the fundamental basis of the purification of beings, overcoming lamentation, walking the path of truth, and liberstion. The others will advocate special noble forms of desire, but the meditation is the truth of what 'already is' and there is only to investigate very carefully and closely the current 'actuality' to find out what is true.