Meditation - Essential to Buddhism

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

It's kinda funny because most people would laugh about the ancient romans worshipping Apollo and Aphrodite etc yet some pretty much do the same thing when deifying normal humans. I've met a lot of powerful popular worshipped guru's/teachers in this life, all have been a let down of sorts. But then I have seen what goes on behind the scenes a lot. I think it's my particular life's path or karma to see such things. Somehow I always meet somebody in their inner circle, then I get invited "back stage" in a sense.... see them when they are not putting on a spiritual show. See them being mean, gossiping about followers, talking about getting the money from so and so ect...

From my experience, these teachers are really no different from anybody else. No better, no worse. Just humans doing human things. Living their lives, doing the best they are able to. I will say I've met some monks who impressed me. They tended to not hold important titles or positions in their religious orders. They were workers, not teachers in the monastery. One was a monk and had builder skills, so he was always off building structures around the monastery. I'm not sure how to explain it, but he was pure love. His eyes had so much light and he would give me these bear hugs whenever he saw me and smile....he did this to everyone. I never felt anything from him except love. He was somehow always in that space. Another monk I met fed the homeless as his interest. He would work at it all the time. As much as he was allowed. I met him when he was rather old so he walked hunched over and was a bit grumpy due to constant physical pain, but he still was making bread to feed the homeless twice a week.

' all have been a let down of sorts '

That's because you expected something from them that they couldn't/didn't give

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

' all have been a let down of sorts '

That's because you expected something from them that they couldn't/didn't give

They were a let down because they were not what they and others claimed them to be. Like that guru who seduced his students and drank all the time. Or the other one that eats pork and meat everyday. The one who made the wives of his male followers sleep with him. Caligula did that too. The one who physically attacked his students, kicking one in the chest. The one who makes jokes out of others suffering. I googled one the other day as others kept mentioning how spiritual he was, and some student of his posted a blog about his experiences with this guru, and mind you this was a guru positive review..... and he said he arranged for his mother to meet with his guru as she was depressed... he asked his mother how it went and his mother told him he asked her to sleep with him..... ya let downs! To me anyway. Some have no problem at all with these behaviors. But then if one does not see immoral behaviors as immoral... future lives will fix that. Karma.

But like I said, many of the monks, the workers in these communities, were of the highest moral character. But then many mediums have said this in books that those on earth, those in power, those rich, those famous, those with authority over others, spiritual or otherwise, tend to not be the highest oldest most evolved beings. The wisest, the most spiritual, are rarely known. They work behind the scenes, they avoid fame and such. They have no interest in being somebody important or having followers. I've read maybe 20+ books on past lives and this has been mentioned in all of them no matter who the writer is. We culturally tend to look up to famous people, successful people, charismatic people, people with high rank..... we associate the rank with the person or being within. Most consider these people as better than others...but worldly rank is meaningless, worldly success, meaningless. All that will matter in the next world is how much we loved, how much we loved all. How much suffering and hurt we caused others and how much we helped to end in others. Just one day not being mean or judgmental of another human being, not harboring one bad thought about another, only loving all as self, is worth more than being a guru with a million followers. A guru who sits on his high chair and judges others.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

They were a let down because they were not what they and others claimed them to be. Like that guru who seduced his students and drank all the time. Or the other one that eats pork and meat everyday. The one who made the wives of his male followers sleep with him. Caligula did that too. The one who physically attacked his students, kicking one in the chest. The one who makes jokes out of others suffering. I googled one the other day as others kept mentioning how spiritual he was, and some student of his posted a blog about his experiences with this guru, and mind you this was a guru positive review..... and he said he arranged for his mother to meet with his guru as she was depressed... he asked his mother how it went and his mother told him he asked her to sleep with him..... ya let downs! To me anyway. Some have no problem at all with these behaviors. But then if one does not see immoral behaviors as immoral... future lives will fix that. Karma.

But like I said, many of the monks, the workers in these communities, were of the highest moral character. But then many mediums have said this in books that those on earth, those in power, those rich, those famous, those with authority over others, spiritual or otherwise, tend to not be the highest oldest most evolved beings. The wisest, the most spiritual, are rarely known. They work behind the scenes, they avoid fame and such. They have no interest in being somebody important or having followers. I've read maybe 20+ books on past lives and this has been mentioned in all of them no matter who the writer is. We culturally tend to look up to famous people, successful people, charismatic people, people with high rank..... we associate the rank with the person or being within. Most consider these people as better than others...but worldly rank is meaningless, worldly success, meaningless. All that will matter in the next world is how much we loved, how much we loved all. How much suffering and hurt we caused others and how much we helped to end in others. Just one day not being mean or judgmental of another human being, not harboring one bad thought about another, only loving all as self, is worth more than being a guru with a million followers. A guru who sits on his high chair and judges others harshly.

Yes, you see them as ' Let Downs' because they didn't meet your expectations.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

It's kinda funny because most people would laugh about the ancient romans worshipping Apollo and Aphrodite

Probably, since Aphrodite was Greek Goddess, Venus being the Roman's...

etc yet some pretty much do the same thing when deifying normal humans. I've met a lot of powerful popular worshipped guru's/teachers in this life, all have been a let down of sorts. But then I have seen what goes on behind the scenes a lot. I think it's my particular life's path or karma to see such things. Somehow I always meet somebody in their inner circle, then I get invited "back stage" in a sense.... see them when they are not putting on a spiritual show. See them being mean, gossiping about followers, talking about getting the money from so and so ect...

I can imagine based on the spiritual front I see teachers parade, and then the news that comes out about their misdoings later on. I was fortunate at my school because I have been behind the scenes and although the organisation has a highly political upper echelon, there is no ratbaggery going on. We do have some that elate the teachers, but because we don't have god-like icons and no one claims to be enlightened, we don't have anything like a guru status to revere. The teachers have to maintain extremely high standards of conduct and their commitment is commendable, so they actually earn a lot of respect. Our trustees are invited to serve on the board after completing extensive meditation retreats as well as dana service. There are a few political issues going on there, but I have never seen a hint of corruption in teachers or the trust. We run on principles of dana, so our 'upper crust' are there to serve others and they expect nothing in return.

From my experience, these teachers are really no different from anybody else. No better, no worse. Just humans doing human things. Living their lives, doing the best they are able to. I will say I've met some monks who impressed me. They tended to not hold important titles or positions in their religious orders. They were workers, not teachers in the monastery. One was a monk and had builder skills, so he was always off building structures around the monastery. I'm not sure how to explain it, but he was pure love. His eyes had so much light and he would give me these bear hugs whenever he saw me and smile....he did this to everyone. I never felt anything from him except love. He was somehow always in that space. Another monk I met fed the homeless as his interest. He would work at it all the time. As much as he was allowed. I met him when he was rather old so he walked hunched over and was a bit grumpy due to constant physical pain, but he still was making bread to feed the homeless twice a week.

Yes, we also have dedicated workers, landscapers, builders etc. who give a lot of their time, and they are respectable folk. I didn't like them all - a couple of them brushed me the wrong way - but nothing wrong, so I respected and trusted all of them. We aren't permitted physical contact, so no hugs, but we are allowed to smile... teehee, We also practice mindfulness sittings together three times a day and metta meditations as a group every night, which means personal blowouts don't really get out of hand.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes, you see them as ' Let Downs' because they didn't meet your expectations.

I guess you want me to continue on about this subject. That's fine I will discuss anything.

You don't understand and that's fine. Nothing wrong or bad about that. Nothing higher or lower about that at all. Most don't think or contemplate very deeply about some subjects. Everyone has different gifts and different paths and reasons for this incarnation. We can't really judge who is higher or lower as we don't know all the details behind an incarnation. I just watched a medium explain that in a video the other day. Was very good in parts.

Here's a simple example for you, to maybe help you get what I posted about. If you are even interested in getting it lol.

Imagine you hire a nanny to care for your baby because you have to work. You have expectations that nanny will care for your child. You notice bruises on your baby and put in a secret nanny cam. You look back at the footage and see the nanny throwing around your baby, dropping it on the floor, slapping it, letting it cry unattended, not feeding it...

Thank God you have expectations. You fire the nanny and press charges so the nanny does not do this to another baby. You are putting expectations in a wholly negative context. There is a reason why one does this. Typically someone who does this also puts "judgements" into a simplistic negative category. Thus why one can read about a guru doing horrible things, things one would never accept to be done to their own children or partner for example, and wave them off..... who are we to judge! He is more spiritual than us! We can't know his higher purposes... So it goes. This is all observable on these very forums. Oh spiritual people don't judge... look how spiritual I am as I won't judge this guru's behaviors...

Judging, having expectations, have higher and lower forms. Karma is a judge instigated by the source. The highest beings judge all day long. But the higher forms of judgement and discernment. Ones that deal with seeing and truths. There is a very steep karmic price paid by those who don't understand judgement and expectations. Who simply write them off as bad because of some spiritual simplistic quote they read or hear somewhere.

I've seen some real life karmic repercussions to such a view and they are bad.

Simple example of judging.

Bad judging:

You get hit a lot in school by a particular person..... you grow up hating everyone who is similar in some cultural or external way to that person. You treat those people badly.

Good judging:

You observe a bully in school hurting others, you get a bunch of the victims together and go speak to authorities about what is going on to find a solution to the violence.

Notice one way of judging involves truth, another doesn't. There is right and wrong, good and bad. Harming the innocent intentionally is bad for example. Letting someone get away with harming others which you can stop, is bad. As the Dalia Lama said, those harmed by that guru should warn others about him. It is their responsibility. To not warn others is to get bad karma as you are helping the bad behavior to continue , the harm to others to continue.

I get the whole don't judge thing, but there are nuances to it. Judging can be bad, at other times, to not judge is bad. To have no expectations in the behaviors of a religious authority, whose actions affect a lot of people, is bad. Look at Jonestown, 909 people murdered by a guru, by a spiritual teacher. But yea don't judge eh...live without expectations.... Judging me for having expectations is judging.... is having an expectation, to expect those of a higher nature to not expect.... it is the belief to not judge is higher than judging...gotta love English.... to judge judging as bad is a judgement.... there you go!

Ok judge away Not accepting your guru's is my fault for expecting them to behave a certain way towards others.... If a guru, priest, teacher, sexually abuses children, it is my fault as I have expectations of how they should act? Nothing wrong with them eh??? Judging pointing the finger the wrong direction there. But then, maybe there is.... but not my place to judge.....? Depends if it is your place or not. And to not judge when it is your place, can lead to more harm being done which you could have prevented.

The Dalia Lama went into these nuances. The bottom line is harm. If one can stop the harming of others, the harming of the innocent, one should always do it. That what official judges do. They are in the business of judging. They sit in a chair everyday in a black robe and judge others for the greater good of society and harmony. If you steal, attack others, break laws made to sustain peace, they judge you and send you to jail. I suppose those into this simplistic idea of all judging being wrong want to release all from jail, have no judges or police, have no laws. It sure would be a different world with no judging. Those willing to be the most violent would control and run everything like does happen in some parts of this planet. In these cultures or places, the good people are killed and live in fear, while the violent run and control everything.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I guess you want me to continue on about this subject. That's fine I will discuss anything.

' Not accepting your guru's '

Wrong again with your presumptions... I personally don't have a Guru.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Gem

Probably, since Aphrodite was Greek Goddess, Venus being the Roman's...

Ah my bad lol.

Yea I am sure there are a lot of good religious or spiritual organizations. No reason to focus on the bad ones really unless somebody brings them up. And even in bad ones it's a mix of good and bad people.

This one place I lived we were not allowed televisions or internet or cell phones so not much to do in those categories. But then I was staying in a higher up's house and they were gone a lot. Well they had a pile of recordings of the meetings they (the robe wearing teachers) had with the "master" sitting in the living room. So with nothing to do one day I listened to them. Yea was an eye opener lol. They seriously discussed how to get more money out of some rich members. How to butter them up and get them to donate more. How to make them feel important. I learned a lot there about human behaviors. People join religious groups for so many different reasons. The reality is many in these groups don't care about the morality of the master at all. They are there for their own selfish reasons. For the peaceful lifestyle, for the community. For being close to nature etc. For not having a real 9 to 5 job. To be away from the big cities. So they find out about what the master is doing which is wrong, and they just shrug their shoulders, not my concern is their view. And that's true in a way. But then untrue in another way.

But then some do leave, some stay, when a bad guru is exposed. Up to the individual. So many factors involved. Some are so financially invested in a community or dependent on them they can't leave. Like to have your children there as well. Your source of income and support. Leave and you lose your whole family and way to support yourself.

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

I personally don't have a Guru.

I meant in the sense of posting quotes from some "guru" and posting how great and spiritual they are. Personally promoting them for some reason. Defending them from others criticisms.

If something is not ours, we don't promote it, sell it, defend it. But that "something" of course is purely conceptual as most times we have no real life connection with these teachers or guru's. It's all a mental connection only. We don't live physically with these teachers or know them in person, live with them. We instead read their books or quotes, see them on video and form the connection that way. Make them ours to promote or defend and support that way.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I meant in the sense of posting quotes from some "guru" and posting how great and spiritual they are. Personally promoting them for some reason. Defending them from others criticisms.

If something is not ours, we don't promote it, sell it, defend it. But that "something" of course is purely conceptual as most times we have no real life connection with these teachers or guru's. It's all a mental connection only. We don't live physically with these teachers or know them in person, live with them. We instead read their books or quotes, see them on video and form the connection that way. Make them ours to promote or defend and support that way.

' Make them ours to promote or defend and support that way.[/quote] '


Mybe you do but I don't make anyone mine.... That could be why you have expections as you see them as ' Yours '....

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by sky123

Mybe you do but I don't make anyone mine....

Yes for sure. I make everyone mine. I have empathy and compassion and concern for all. Everyone is me and I am them. All are divine at our core. We are all connected and the same. I have had a lot of teachers of love and freedom, peace, truth and wisdom. Had and have as nothing of value we experience ever leaves us. Buddha, Jesus, Krishnamurti, Mooji, Ram Das, Bodhidharma, Alan Watts, Thomas Merten, Rumi, Lao Tzu, I'm bad at names and spelling by the way... like Einstein . I could list thousands of things that are in me, mine, little phrases, insights, just a look into someone's eyes that will remain with me forever as a spark of the divine was there. A connection to the source.

I am you and you are me; it is obvious. Nhat Hanh

I am you, you are me, know this and be free, be divine. Sai Baba

I am not what you think I am, you are what you think I am. Buddhist Saying