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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #21  
Old 19-06-2020, 07:42 AM
sky sky is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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Adam is a figure that symbolizes all of the earliest humans on earth, both men and women.

"In the day that God created man (or Adam), in the likeness of God made He him; male and female created He them ."
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  #22  
Old 19-06-2020, 04:22 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Adam's sin being a happy fault?
https://opeast.org/2016/03/o-happy-fault/

I have no trouble in seeing the 'fall' of Adam as being the necessary start to a process that leads to a triumphant ending, however, I cannot do so in the traditional evangelical Christian paradigm as Jesus's death being some sort of blood payment for Adam's sin. That whole idea is just too bizarre for me to get my mind around.

I think a better paradigm would be that of Joseph Campbell's 'hero's journey', with Adam not being just Adam, but a representation of the character arc of a soul as it moves through the story of a human life experience(s), and perhaps even as a representation of a character arc for the evolution of humanity through history as a whole. The vast majority of myths and stories follow the pattern of the hero’s journey. They do so, IMO, because it is foundationally recognized by humanity as the fundamental journey of a human life, as the story pattern of the life experience, and the journey of the evolution of humanity as well. Each one of us is a Hero With a Thousand Faces’, and perhaps countless more.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles...-heros-journey

Adam starts out as an ignorant and naive child in the Garden of Eden where all of his needs are provided for by God. He does not need to understand anything just do as he is told. God has the knowledge of good and evil and to be good Adam must simply obey God as a child obeys a parent, and not try to think or understand for himself. God is the parent figure and Adam is the child figure, Adam has not yet developed an ego and has no free will.

In time, Adam decides that just obeying everything God says is not enough and he wants to make his own judgements and decisions about what to do and what not to do. This is just like a child who starts to develop a sense of an independent self, and starts to want to exert its own will independent of the parents. As a child grows, they become more and more independent from the parents, exert their own will more and more, and suffer the consequences of their decisions and actions during life. This is what life does, it allows us to experience good and evil and gain that knowledge that is necessary to make those judgments, and to understand why God is good. Life is what Adam ends up experiencing when he tries to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is why some speculate that the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were originally intended to be the same tree in prior iterations of this creation myth. I tend to think this as well. Genesis seems to have roots in prior mythology that better understood the story of mankind. It was later altered and adapted into hebrew mythology to fit a particular religious narrative in a way that sounds rather strange and bizarre. Yet it does not take too much disillusionment and independent thinking to see the shadows of deeper wisdom and meaning from which it probably came.

We can see Adam (as a representative of any man and all of mankind) going through all the major stages of the Hero’s Journey. He starts off at home safe but naive, he ends up leaving home to go on an adventure and face many trials and tribulations in a world of good and evil. From these experiences he grows in the knowledge of good and evil moving toward the realization of the goodness/divinity within himself. It becomes a process of Adam realizing his divinity within himself, a divinity that has been there from the start, as he is created by, and is still a part of God.

Jesus represents not only the perfected state of mankind (or rather the soul) in that he is said to be sinless, and his triumph over death through his resurrection represents the fact that once this knowledge of good and evil are attained and understood, the need to go through life and experience good and evil to gain that knowledge is no longer necessary. The crucifixion is the crisis before the climax of the story, which is followed by the final triumph of resurrection. It is a triumph over both evil and death. A triumph over evil in that despite undergoing the most unfair, unjust, and unwarranted evil, Jesus does not stray from being good in his heart right up to the very end. Jesus subsequently returns home to God with the ‘secret elixir’ which is the knowledge of good and evil with which he can now understand and fully appreciate the goodness of God. Jesus represents the evolved self realized state of mankind, the ‘Son of man’, a fully self realized ‘Son of the living Father’.

Adam (the soul, mankind) is on that Hero’s Journey from an infantile state of innocence and ignorance under the full control and protection of God, through an adventure (many adventures) of life with its many experiences of good and evil, until he will eventually face his inner ignorance and demons and conqueror them to fully realize is inner divinity and return home to God as a fully realized soul, able to appreciate the goodness of God.

Through that paradigm, I see Adams' bite of the apple as symbolic of him answering the call to adventure. Had he never bit the apple, he would never have lived. If he never lives, he will not gain the knowledge of good and evil. Without the knowledge of good and evil, Adam cannot understand and fully appreciate the goodness of God. And so, Adam’s bite becomes a ‘happy fault’ as it starts him out on a journey of growth and self realization that ends with the final triumph over evil and death. Adam (mankind) will ‘return home to God’ with the magic elixir of the knowledge of good and evil, and now he will not only obey God as a little child obeys a parent, but will do so through his own free will, as he appreciates that God is good and it is Adams will to be good, he just didn’t know what that meant before, but now he has attained the knowledge. The will of man and the will of God become one, which IMO, is a good thing.

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

(106) Jesus said, "When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man, and when you say, 'Mountain, move away,' it will move away."
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  #23  
Old 19-06-2020, 08:18 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
Adam was not made androgynous. Please provide a scripture that states that he was androgynous


Please provide clarification on what you stated.


Please provide clarification on what you stated especially the 'Adam's sin being a happy fault'.

Eve came out of Adam and that shows he was androgynous. If made in god's image, that shows that Yahweh was known as an androgynous god, just as the translation of his name implies. Both male and female like most of the ancient Eastern gods.

Your bible has god saying he created --- Gen5;2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

As to Adam's sin. Check your own Exulted hymn for the logic of what Christians sing. The twisted logic and apologetics is right in the hymn.

Regards
DL
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  #24  
Old 19-06-2020, 08:20 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Well, perhaps, but I tend to believe that not everything attributed to God was actually said and done by God. Perhaps the 3rd commandment is the most violated of them all.

Your first is a good way for you to start to recognize that all that is said of the unknowable god is speculative nonsense and all lies.

Literal reading of myths is the worse way to read myths.

Regards
DL
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  #25  
Old 19-06-2020, 08:21 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky123
Adam is a figure that symbolizes all of the earliest humans on earth, both men and women.

"In the day that God created man (or Adam), in the likeness of God made He him; male and female created He them ."

Nice that you know how to interpret scriptures.

Let's hope Christians learn that skill.

Regards
DL
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  #26  
Old 19-06-2020, 08:30 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer
Adam's sin being a happy fault?
https://opeast.org/2016/03/o-happy-fault/

That whole idea is just too bizarre for me to get my mind around.

Thanks much for the well done presentation. Christians should be taking apologetics lessons from you.

As to the substitutional punishment of Jesus you dislike, I do not blame you because it is immoral for anyone to profit from their abdicating their responsibility for their sins.

A Bishop Spong has links that have him saying that that vile substitutional atonement idea is what will kill Christianity because it is so immoral.

I do have a link but many like to do their own research. Let me know if you want it.

Regards
DL
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  #27  
Old 19-06-2020, 09:58 PM
TheGlow TheGlow is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: outside the illusion
Posts: 1,493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Seeker
You have judged many things to decide that Yahweh is a good god, against the genocidal and infanticidal biblical facts.

Your bible tells us to judge all things but moral cowards will not judge Yahweh justly and end in adoring a genocidal prick of a god.

I can see where your horrid immoral verdict would turn you off to judging.

I would not judge either if I had to settle for your satanic god.

Regards
DL
You make assumptions. That’s an observation not a judgement by the way, two different things as is discernment different.

For the record I’m not a Christian. I was but saw personally the bible does not show gods love that I know.

All spiritual books have truth. I find the truth.

Being stuck in judgement keeps you stuck as judged.

It is said through all spiritual traditions in other words and phrases.

Judge me or others if you want. It’s your call.

I just answered a thread on a message board.

I do wonder why my reply triggered you so that you felt the need to castigate me. No harm, no foul. I hold no grudge nor take offence.
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  #28  
Old 20-06-2020, 01:54 PM
ketzer
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Seeker
Thanks much for the well done presentation. Christians should be taking apologetics lessons from you.

As to the substitutional punishment of Jesus you dislike, I do not blame you because it is immoral for anyone to profit from their abdicating their responsibility for their sins.

A Bishop Spong has links that have him saying that that vile substitutional atonement idea is what will kill Christianity because it is so immoral.

I do have a link but many like to do their own research. Let me know if you want it.

Regards
DL

I do not call myself a Christian, so I would have no need to make apologies for that dogma. Most Christians would rightly classify me as a heretic rather than an apologist.

I expect that the substitution atonement theology that developed had more to do with placing the church between Jesus and the follower then any rational interpretation of Jesus's life or message. For most of its history the church taught that you could not get to heaven through good deeds alone, but needed to go through the church to get in on Jesus's atonement sacrifice. This gave the church enormous power not just over the lives of the people, but their afterlife as well. I have compared this idea to getting in on Jesus's settlement of a class action lawsuit with God in other posts. One can go through the church to get in on the settlement (Jesus's blood?), or go to court with God yourself and face that judgement.....which of course you will be found guilty as you were born that way.

I googled that Bishop Spong (John Shelby I assume) and listened to some of what he had to say. Although his science is a bit off in some spots, he does do a good job of recounting the laundry list of complaints many have against the Bible and the resultant theologies that came out of it. Personally, I once shared your outrage and anger at God based on what I read in the bible, but that was a long time ago. God, Jesus, and any other figure for that matter is not immune from people usurping their names for their own vain human ends. This is why I think the 3rd commandment is misunderstood and way underrated. I expect so much of the teachings of any major religion are based not on God, love, or truth, but on the agendas of those vain humans who have led them in the past and do so today. So I no longer hold God or Jesus accountable for the things others say and write about them, I just try to look beyond those words or even into those words to see if there is anything remaining that might make some sense, and surprisingly, there still is.

Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees ...... because you really are so often full of ****!
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  #29  
Old 20-06-2020, 04:57 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGlow
You make assumptions. That’s an observation not a judgement by the way, two different things as is discernment different.

For the record I’m not a Christian. I was but saw personally the bible does not show gods love that I know.

All spiritual books have truth. I find the truth.

Being stuck in judgement keeps you stuck as judged.

It is said through all spiritual traditions in other words and phrases.

Judge me or others if you want. It’s your call.

I just answered a thread on a message board.

I do wonder why my reply triggered you so that you felt the need to castigate me. No harm, no foul. I hold no grudge nor take offence.

I spoke of what scriptures urge us to do. That was not an assumption.

You say I should not judge, which is a judgement call, even as you judge what I put.

Take the log out of your eye and look at my splinter.

Regards
DL
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  #30  
Old 20-06-2020, 05:02 PM
Soul Seeker
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ketzer

Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees ...... because you really are so often full of ****!

Nicely put.

To your last.

You see 20/20.

They have passed that trait on to the mainstream religions.

Regards
DL
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