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  #11  
Old 10-01-2022, 02:42 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by sky
But if you don't understand what morality is through ' Right understanding ' then the foundation is shaking.
I'm not saying it's right... I'm only saying morality is the foundation according to Buddhist philosophy. Formally it is practiced by adhering to precepts like don't lie, steal, kill etc. We take vows to adhere to moral precepts before any training begins (but that won't happen here). After vows, mindfulness practice begins so you get into the other aspects of the path.

But that is not what comes first. Before vows there is refuge. It begins with refuge, then sila, then meditation.

We aren't going to take refuge and make vows here. A forum can't provide conditions for refuge anyway. It's just good for talking about this and that.
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Mc
I like the breakdown into Sila/Pana/Samadhi.
They say that each of the three enhances the others.

How would I put it...? If your morality isn't in check you'll be subject to distractions of temptation and other reactions, and won't be able to meditate and thereby develop wisdom, but on the other hand, if you resolve to be moral, i.e. right thought, word and deed, you have to be aware of what you're doing, which is meditation that grows your wisdom.

One thing at least is for sure, you can't start with wisdom because you start as a fool. Wisdom is the end goal... what Buddhists call ultimate wisdom or IOW 'understanding'. You can't start with meditation because you didn't even start training yet. Hence you start with morality with the first 5 precepts (which relate to right thought word and deed).

On this thread it's relatively simple because it's all about right speech or noble speech. That's all we have to worry about on a thread. You'll notice, however, that being aware of every word will reveal the motive behind them. You become aware at the level of motive and can refrain from saying anything impelled by ill-will, adverse reactivity, personal judgement, self-aggrandisement or other questionable volition.

Since a high degree of self-awareness is required for 'right speech', mindfulness will happen automatically. Thus sila inevitably leads to mindfulness, which leads to the insight one needs for sila. It's a complete loop of continual improvement.
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:15 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I'd start with the morality aspects because morality necessitates one's self awareness and mindfulness.

In Buddhist philosophy, morality is the foundation... Kind of like a compass that keeps you on the 'right' path.

Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras (Asthanga Yoga - eight-limbed yoga) actually start quite explicitly with MORALITY ---- the Yamas (limb 1 - abstinences starting with AHIMSA, non-violence) and the Niyamas (limb 2 - observances starting with SAUCHA, cleanliness/purity) .... culminating in Samadhi (limb 8 - absorption).

Buddha approaches it a little differently and starts with Right Understanding (as one sees things in the moment) but that understanding is constantly being refined by the morality steps and mindfulness/concentration on what one discovers.

In any case, it is indisputable that Buddha listed Right Understanding as the first step in the Eightfold Path and it is clear (at least to me) why he did that. There is a very obvious connection between understanding and morality.

Let me give you an example to demonstrate my point. In another thread on homosexuality, you stated that you "gag" ( )when you see two men kissing. On the other hand, when asked to comment on same-sex relationships/marriage, the Dalai Lama stated that, if no one is harmed and it's consensual, then it's all right. For many, same-sex relationships is a MORALITY issue but their positions can vary significantly depending on their understanding of the Reality. Your understanding in this particular situation seems to be quite different from that of the Dalai Lama as well as my own understanding since my understanding (based on Pantanjali's Yoga sutras) is very consistent with that of the Dalai Lama.

Having said that, I can understand why the Buddha's Eightfold Path identifies Right Understanding first since one's understanding is clearly connected to one's sense of morality in many cases as in the example that I presented above.
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:30 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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QUOTE 8 EXCERPT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Mc
I've heard the 8 fold path being called 8 limbs in the past, the Pali term for 'limb' is 'Anga'. Maybe this suggests an organic or holistic relationship between the parts or maybe it doesn't.
The obvious starting point would seem like Samadhi because perhaps Morality is not possible without Awareness or anything else on the path for that matter is not possible without Awareness ? However, maybe Wisdom/Panna facilitates Samadhi ? I
While I have not heard the reference "8 limbs" with respect to Buddha's Eightfold Path, I agree with you that there is indeed "an organic or holistic relationship between the parts". I alluded to that when I mentioned the "spiraling" effect during the practice of the Eightfold Path. (Perhaps you have confused the Eightfold Path with Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras, also known as Asthanga Yoga ... eight-limbed ... with "Anga" meaning "limb" as you correctly noted.)

Regarding your comment about Samadhi being "the obvious starting point", that is not clear since Samadhi is a rather advanced state and quite uncommon among the general population to which Buddha was directing his teaching. That is why I believe that the Buddha started the Eightfold Path with "Right Understanding" since that is the best possible start for those who have not yet become established in Samadhi. Having said that, I agree completely with your point that "maybe Wisdom/Panna (Right Understanding and Right Thought) facilitates Samadhi. Clearly, the ultimate Right Understanding that emerges at some point is the Samadhi to which you are referring and that is also the culminating point in Pantanjali's Yoga Sutras. Samadhi does not seem likely on Day 1 and hence doesn't seem to be the logical starting point for the masses.
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:33 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sky
But if you don't understand what morality is through ' Right understanding ' then the foundation is shaking.

Amen !
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:46 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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QUOTE 11 EXCERPT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem

I'm only saying morality is the foundation according to Buddhist philosophy. Formally it is practiced by adhering to precepts like don't lie, steal, kill etc. We take vows to adhere to moral precepts before any training begins (but that won't happen here).

Quoting the Theravada Buddhist Guide to Meditation Teachers:

"When the noble disciple UNDERSTANDS what is karmically wholesome, and the root of wholesome kamma, what is karmically unwholesome, and the root of unwholesome kamma, then he has RIGHT UNDERSTANDING."

Under the topic of RIGHT UNDERSTANDING, we shall soon go into "precepts like don't lie, steal, kill etc." as you mentioned in your post.

Actually, in response to your post, I will give you a preview of "what is karmically unwholesome" according to Theravada Buddhism. This includes but is NOT limited to :

- stealing is karmically unwholesome
- lying is karmically unwholesome
- tale-bearing is karmically unwholesome
- ill-will is karmically unwholesome
- wrong views are karmically unwholesome

Your points are valid and this thread is definitely heading there.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:50 PM
Still_Waters Still_Waters is offline
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QUOTE 12 EXCERPT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
They say that each of the three enhances the others.
The three (panna/sila/samadhi) clearly enhance the others. That is obvious.
We are in complete agreement on that point.
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2022, 03:54 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
Buddha approaches it a little differently and starts with Right Understanding
It starts with refuge, and morality is the foundation of meditation, However, refuge has several aspects and nuanced implications which are understood more deeply as time goes on. Morality is also subtle, but to start with you just adhere to 5 precepts. Refuge and the precepts are taken before you start training.
Quote:
In any case, it is indisputable that Buddha listed Right Understanding as the first step
I suppose you could have your own version, but typically in Buddhism it's like I said.
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2022, 04:20 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Originally Posted by Still_Waters
QUOTE 11 EXCERPT:Actually, in response to your post, I will give you a preview of "what is karmically unwholesome"
It's way too early to talk about kamma, but since kamma is volition (according to buddhist philosophy) it relates directly to ill-will and goodwill, which are fundamental to morality, but I couldn't contextualise that with kamma at this stage, and I'd be happily surprised if the thread becomes that nuanced.
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  #20  
Old 10-01-2022, 04:34 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
We take vows to adhere to moral precepts before any training begins.
In the Buddhist Sangha I occasionally attend you are not asked to take any 'Vows', mybe in your Ashram. There is another small difference, you call it 'Training' they call it 'Practising'.....
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