Truth and Reality

Originally Posted by Shabby

Yep....and you know ; )

..... if thats what you believe - ok then.

(damn it you got me before i edited! lol)

Originally Posted by The Eagle

..... if thats what you believe - ok then.

(damn it you got me before i edited! lol)

LOL
Everyone knows...even if they for some reason or not, choose or not, believe or not, that they don't.

Originally Posted by Shabby

LOL
Everyone knows...even if they for some reason or not, choose or not, believe or not, that they don't.

hmmm - does "know" deal with truth?? you can't know without belief though.

how about -

everyone believes they know truth ...even if they dont realise its a belief.

Originally Posted by The Eagle

hmmm - does "know" deal with truth?? you can't know without belief though.

how about -

everyone believes they know truth ...even if they dont realise its a belief.

No LOL Knowing is not the same as knowledge. Knowing is to be "it". You can know the Truth but not in terms of knowledge....therefore one can not say Truth is this or that...well that is not quite true either...yes you can say it but it would not reflect the Truth. There is Truth but what that Truth is one can not define, as words are limited and subject to interpretation.

Originally Posted by Shabby

No LOL Knowing is not the same as knowledge. Knowing is to be "it". You can know the Truth but not in terms of knowledge....therefore one can not say Truth is this or that...well that is not quite true either...yes you can say it but it would not reflect the Truth. There is Truth but what that Truth is one can not define, as words are limited and subject to interpretation.

lol but as soon as you "know" - that knowing becomes "knowledge".

the question still remains - how do you "know" in the first place?

to say "there is truth" - is a belief there is truth. i think it goes beyond words down to perception. if there is truth - then we only perceive it. whilst there is human observation - then it is only belief that what we percieve is truth.

so if there is truth we can only believe that what we perceive - is truth. but that is not "knowing" that truth exists in the first place. it is believing in truth.

Originally Posted by The Eagle

lol but as soon as you "know" - that knowing becomes "knowledge".

the question still remains - how do you "know" in the first place?

to say "there is truth" - is a belief there is truth. i think it goes beyond words down to perception. if there is truth - then we only perceive it. whilst there is human observation - then it is only belief that what we percieve is truth.

so if there is truth we can only believe that what we perceive - is truth. but that is not "knowing" that truth exists in the first place. it is believing in truth.

The difficulty with words is that there is always another meaning for a word. The Knowing I am talking about is not based on knowledge (information). You can only know it by being "it". It's like being consciously unconscious. And if you understand that then you understand more then me : )

Originally Posted by Shabby

The difficulty with words is that there is always another meaning for a word. The Knowing I am talking about is not based on knowledge (information). You can only know it by being "it". It's like being consciously unconscious. And if you understand that then you understand more then me : )

hmmm - you are more going for the awareness definition of knowing??

that doesn't get you beyond "belief" though in terms of truth - you can believe you are aware. but then later you can say "i believed i was aware, i wasnt but now i am" - then this is a belief again.

nope no escape!

Originally Posted by The Eagle

hmmm - you are more going for the awareness definition of knowing??

that doesn't get you beyond "belief" though in terms of truth - you can believe you are aware. but then later you can say "i believed i was aware, i wasnt but now i am" - then this is a belief again.

nope no escape!

O.K. I give up...hey but I fought a good fight at least that's what I believe : )

[Xan]

Originally Posted by The Eagle

a belief that there is absolute truth - is still a belief.

meditation is a mental process - for example what you "learnt" while meditating - you must be concious and thinking. what you "learnt" is stored in your memmory.

then what you believe is truth - is based on memmory. unless you have a perfect memmory then it is belief again.

there is no escaping.

Eagle... Although the human mind is a learning machine full of beliefs, both useful and not... mind is only one function of consciousness.

Meditation is going beyond the mind into silent awareness itself, which contains no learning nor ideas.

This can only be experienced for oneself, otherwise it seems like just another learned idea.


Xan

Originally Posted by Xan

Eagle... Although the human mind is a learning machine full of beliefs, both useful and not... mind is only one function of consciousness.

Meditation is going beyond the mind into silent awareness itself, which contains no learning nor ideas.

This can only be experienced for oneself, otherwise it seems like just another learned idea.


Xan

i would suggest it goes further than that. for instance at that point where you gain understanding through meditation - your mind is still functioning, concious and prevelant.

how we can suggest that is true is by the ability to learn and to know in that state. otherwise when you come out of meditation - you would not know what you just learnt. plus you must base this new found "awareness" - on a memmory of when you were meditating - i.e. belief again.

meditation puts your mind in certain direction to believe a certain way - to say that it represents "truth" or "knowing" or indeed "awareness" - is a belief.

i dont disregard meditation as a useful tool - in order to achieve what you want to achieve. i.e. the belief of clarity, or the belief of awareness, the belief of a "higher truth".

but the human condition is - is that its a belief either way.