Are we really free willed?

[NightSpirit]

Originally Posted by Spiritlite

How are we not free at all? I'm just curious on that one. I beleive I'm free to make decisions when I want how I want.
Spiritlite.

You can make a decision, but that doesn't mean you're always free to carry it through. The freedom lies in decision only and not necessarily its actions.

In my opinion, free will revolves around everyones opinion of what being controlled truly entails.

External influences like gravity or our jobs or friends could be seen as restricting ones own free will....or it could be seen as the product of each individuals own choices in life, or simply just as the way things are.

Someone can view fate to be overbearing and encompasing their entire capacity to think and live so as to have no free will....or they can believe that they choose their own fate or that fate has no hold over them because they do not believe in it at all.

So yeh...it revolves around our own opinions of what being controlled is and what it feels like.

I think the question of "do we really have free will?" is actually a really primal query because animals and people alike do not like to feel (or to be) trapped and because people are intelligent animals, they like to believe they are in control of their surroundings, their actions and their thoughts.

Free will could be what it is to feel completely in control (I say feel because it's obvious that we can't control the weather...etc.)

So, theoretically, if someone were to question their own free will, it might simply mean they are feeling trapped/not in control and are externalising it by asking that question and seeking whatever answer makes them feel the most safe and secure in order to end that feeling of being "trapped."

I'm just vaguely musing over that though, there are far more possibilities like just being curious as to what their peers think or what their own personal boundaries are...etc...etc.

Personally, I have come to accept that I have however much free will as I am supposed to have at this moment and I don't see any point in trying to compare and guage how much actual free will that is because it would not give me any satisfaction and would be impossible the achieve accurately anyways.

So, basically I suppose I don't really care about whether I have any free will or not. Heh.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Achieving free-will is the name of the game. There is no higher calling. This is what Healing is all about. With free-will we can Choose to be whole and healthy. So, you'd BETTER care if you have Free-Will.!.
It seems to me that much of this issue revolves around cause and effect. There IS cause and effect; just not necessarily how we've come to think of it. My experiences lead to the conclusion that our perceptions of time are askew. Cause does not need to preceed effect along the timeline that we are familiar with.
The "Course In Miracles" states that there is only NOW. The Past is a construct of us NOW. Freedom REQUIRES that we not be imprisoned. Giving power to the past to determine your beingness is an error.
We cannot reconcile freedom/determinism through compromise; you cannot be a little bit pregnant. Freedom determines a destination. That course is (then) ''determined'' unless and until another choice is made.
"When" the choices are made is in question. Of course, ALL things are NOW.

[Serenity69]

I believe young children have Free Will, as their play is infinite.

Freedom of Choice occurs if we are more materialistic.

Divine Will happens when we become more spiritual.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Sangress

In my opinion, free will revolves around everyones opinion of what being controlled truly entails.

External influences like gravity or our jobs or friends could be seen as restricting ones own free will....or it could be seen as the product of each individuals own choices in life, or simply just as the way things are.

Someone can view fate to be overbearing and encompasing their entire capacity to think and live so as to have no free will....or they can believe that they choose their own fate or that fate has no hold over them because they do not believe in it at all.

So yeh...it revolves around our own opinions of what being controlled is and what it feels like.

I think the question of "do we really have free will?" is actually a really primal query because animals and people alike do not like to feel (or to be) trapped and because people are intelligent animals, they like to believe they are in control of their surroundings, their actions and their thoughts.

Free will could be what it is to feel completely in control (I say feel because it's obvious that we can't control the weather...etc.)

So, theoretically, if someone were to question their own free will, it might simply mean they are feeling trapped/not in control and are externalising it by asking that question and seeking whatever answer makes them feel the most safe and secure in order to end that feeling of being "trapped."

I'm just vaguely musing over that though, there are far more possibilities like just being curious as to what their peers think or what their own personal boundaries are...etc...etc.

Personally, I have come to accept that I have however much free will as I am supposed to have at this moment and I don't see any point in trying to compare and guage how much actual free will that is because it would not give me any satisfaction and would be impossible the achieve accurately anyways.

So, basically I suppose I don't really care about whether I have any free will or not. Heh.

I like your points there.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

Achieving free-will is the name of the game. There is no higher calling. This is what Healing is all about. With free-will we can Choose to be whole and healthy. So, you'd BETTER care if you have Free-Will.!.
It seems to me that much of this issue revolves around cause and effect. There IS cause and effect; just not necessarily how we've come to think of it. My experiences lead to the conclusion that our perceptions of time are askew. Cause does not need to preceed effect along the timeline that we are familiar with.
The "Course In Miracles" states that there is only NOW. The Past is a construct of us NOW. Freedom REQUIRES that we not be imprisoned. Giving power to the past to determine your beingness is an error.
We cannot reconcile freedom/determinism through compromise; you cannot be a little bit pregnant. Freedom determines a destination. That course is (then) ''determined'' unless and until another choice is made.
"When" the choices are made is in question. Of course, ALL things are NOW.

I wonder how that is? 'This' is the way it is now, then 'This'... now is a continual 'This'.

What I always consider is WHaT has free will? This is just the same question as What Am I Really? Then of course Who Is Asking? All the while knowing these questions arize as thoughts... and perhaps we consider these thoughts important thoughts, but important to What?

It occurs to me that since there is the asking the honest answer is I do not know What has free will, and if there is no What to define how can we assume It has free will?

This is a good topic with many posts, so since the last post was over six weeks ago, I thought maybe I could revive it.

One observation I have in reading these posts is that there is a lot so misapprehension that because there are limits to our freedom, there is no free will. That just does not follow. The conclusion should be that freedom and free will are not the same thing. Freedom may be constrained by many things, like the governmental system, which limits choices, but I am free to choose among the many remaining choices available to me. Societal and genetic influences may affect how I choose and what I choose, but there will never be certainty as to which choice I will make among the subset of alternatives available to me even after those influences are accounted for. Free will may not be absolute, but that does not mean there is no fee will. It just means it is finite, like most other mortal things. For the most part, don't we behave as if we had free will, even though we can see that so much is beyond our individual control? If there is no free will, then there is no need to fret about it because you can't do other than what you are doing anyway. Paradoxically, if that idea gives you license to commit mayhem, doesn't that demonstrate that you are exercising free will after all?

My pragmatic advice: whether or not there really is free will, act as though you have it and that in so doing there will be consequences. If there is no free will, you've lost nothing, and if there is, you will save yourself considerable grief.

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Gem, I can't follow much of your thinking there. Are you perplexed by "now" as "eternity"? Does the idea of change/evolution within eternity confuze?
I've read descriptions of Heaven wherein everything is "in it's place". This reeks of "stagnation" to me and doesn't have the feel of "Heaven".
There was an ancient Greek philosopher who championed "Flux" as the basis for reality. (Much as Pythagoras hailed Mathematics.) To me, change is "good". Although I may like observing the Grand Canyon for some time, eventually, I'll want to see the Iguazu Falls. I like "motion" and movement.
Also, you ask What has Free-Will? You are asking to know your own identity. You seem to suggest that you do not and cannot know. I tell you to not give up. You CAN know who you are. This is one of the main concepts in all philosopies: "know thyself". I suggest that the knowledge is available to you. It is within you.

Lastly, the "cost" of Free Will is the "sacrifice" of servitude. Yet Free-Will is forever "bound" to Desire. We MUST choose as we want, if Choice has any meaning. I will never (again) seek to "free" my will "from" what I will.

clarity is next to godliness, am i understood?

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Gem, on re-reading your post I get a different feel. It seems you say that BECAUSE you've asked a question, it is obvious that you do not have the answer. And, logically, you can never find an answer. [was this your meaning?]
The answers ARE available. Q)"What has Free Will?" A) "me". The full extent of "me" may be in question. But one way to label this would be by what you (I/us/we) can "control". That which I control is "mine"; as in "my arm".
I feel it is "blasphemy" to attempt to control others; even to the extent of presenting a convincing argument.... Make up your own mind. The purpose of manifestation is to experience "other". Freedom is "holy".
Freedom is "problematic" in a sense though. My arms' Freedom must reside in its servitude to my fullness of being if I am not to be completely dismembered in pursuit of Freedom. o.O