The relationship between Oneness and Maya.

[Iamit]

Can Oneness only manifest as an ilusion Of Two? If so why? I would be intested in responses to that question.

[iamthat]

It depends where we are coming from.

The common idea is that Oneness manifests as duality.

But duality implies a third element - the relationship between the two aspects of duality. So Oneness manifests as a triplicity.

And then there is the idea of Oneness manifesting as "the ten thousand things". The ten thousand things is simply a poetic way of describing the entire world, the indefinite multitude of all forms and beings in manifest existence.

For example, in Zen "When the self advances, the ten thousand things retreat. When the self retreats, the ten thousand things advance."

But this probably originates from Taoism.

Tao produced the One.
The One produced the two.
The two produced the three.
And the three produced the ten thousand things.

All can be considered as correct.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

But duality implies a third element - the relationship between the two aspects of duality. So Oneness manifests as a triplicity.

Close but no cigar


The pre-Taoist alchemists called it Triplex Unity. It appears in Christianity as the fish symbol, it appears in ancient Egypt as part of the Eye of Ra and it appears in Ireland as the trefoil. Draw a circle on paper with another beside it. That's duality vs non-duality, Oneness vs Maya...... Draw another two circles but one above the other and intersecting. See? It's called the Vesica Pisces and forms the basis for the Buddhist Egg and Flower of Life. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. You can visualise the two circles as our 'spheres of consciousness' overlapping as you read this, and it's in the overlap that the understanding comes. It doesn't matter what you think of this post, there's an interaction of consciousness going on just the same. That simply can't happen in Oneness. But then, everything exists in relation to something else - Oneness doesn't exist without Maya. If there is no Maya then Oneness is meaningless.

Originally Posted by iamthat

"When the self advances, the ten thousand things retreat. When the self retreats, the ten thousand things advance."

A simple shift in perspective.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Tao produced the One.
The One produced the two.
The two produced the three.
And the three produced the ten thousand things.

Any number of cultures say something similar, that it's a division/aspect of One but the understanding is that the One creates the many that creates the One, linear thinking is the barrier here and when you think relationships and 'feedback loops' it all makes sense. Those ten thousand things also created the concept of Oneness, God, the drops and the ocean.....

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You can visualise the two circles as our 'spheres of consciousness' overlapping as you read this, and it's in the overlap that the understanding comes.

On the horizontal line (overcoming horizontal dualities) our energy fields also do overlap and one can tell a lot about the ‘other’ person by listening in on this overlap.
A sweet story about the overlap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HcLFyPkYs

When one experiences ‘oneness’ with another – not sure what happens … I call it the first step on the vertical which is a spatial awareness perspective of witnessing, of seeing through both of you, yet it is neither …. It is as if “seeing everything now from the perspective of space”, (both are simultaneously attuned to).

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

To quote from Swami Lakshmanjoo’s writing on Abhinavagupta:

“Abhinavagupta says that Krama deals with space and time. He explains that actually there is no space. When one deals with forms, the space appears. When one is established in formless state of being, for him there is no space. In the same way when there is something to be done, then only the existence of time shines and when you have nothing to do, then time has no existence.

Yet - ‘seeing from the perspective of space’ gives one the closest description of awareness, that is spheric (vs linear/dual consciousness), where in that “seeing” (transparency) - question and answer arise simultaneously and where the centre of that awareness – ‘the Holy World Mountain’ or the ‘Eagle Eye’ is everywhere.

*

Originally Posted by sentient

On the horizontal line (overcoming horizontal dualities) our energy fields also do overlap and one can tell a lot about the ‘other’ person by listening in on this overlap.
A sweet story about the overlap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5HcLFyPkYs

When one experiences ‘oneness’ with another – not sure what happens … I call it the first step on the vertical which is a spatial awareness perspective of witnessing, of seeing through both of you, yet it is neither …. It is as if “seeing everything now from the perspective of space”, (both are simultaneously attuned to).

The heart sends out an electric pulse every time the heart beats, it's not much but it's detectable just the same. The body is carbon-based so it can act as a transmitter/receiver of those pulses. And yes, just like the lad with the reindeer you can tell something of the other person's energy field, even if it's that they're not in a good place.

The Oneness you're talking about is more of a 'sixth sense' I think, we're all potentially capable of it but few seem to want to, I can't help but wonder if things would be 'more Spiritual' if we could sense each other in this way beyond differences in beliefs. Interestingly it doesn't just happen in Spirituality, it happens more often in 'real Life' when people aren't so focussed on Spirituality. Gotta love the irony, eh?

Originally Posted by sentient

Yet - ‘seeing from the perspective of space’ gives one the closest description of awareness, that is spheric (vs linear/dual consciousness), where in that “seeing” (transparency) - question and answer arise simultaneously and where the centre of that awareness – ‘the Holy World Mountain’ or the ‘Eagle Eye’ is everywhere.

*

I use the model of the Vesica Pisces because it's the most simple but it's actually spherical, it isn't limited to two dimensions. Well it can be but that's another discussion, I think the question in the OP is trying to move on from two-dimensional thinking. Consciousness encompasses so while there is a centre of awareness - the Vesica Pisces in either 2D or 3D - there is also another dimension beyond the question, the answer and the awareness.

In Africa they have a saying - "I am because we are." That says it better than all of the Spiritual technobabble I've seen so far and that's at the heart of this discussion. Oneness is because Maya is; Maya is a manifestation of Oneness while Oneness is emergent of Maya, both at the same time.

[Jyotir]

I agree but why?

It’s been said that the delight of self-discovery within an interdependent multiplicity by a continuous self-transcendence is primary.


~ J

Originally Posted by Iamit

Can Oneness only manifest as an illusion Of Two? If so why? I would be interested in responses to that question.

Deep question Iamit, I'm still wondering why the Unborn decided to create two in the first place...

Enjoying each moment of this illusion until I find the answer to that question.

Regards,

[FallingLeaves]

but there aren't two things... the idea of two or more things only originates when you start drawing lines in the sand... without that it all blurs together...

Originally Posted by Legrand

Enjoying each moment of this illusion until I find the answer to that question.

This illusion is the environment in which you consider yourself to be a single being who is Spiritual - both of which is a 'product' of the illusion. The concept that it is an illusion is also a product of the illusion. And by the way, you are the answer looking for the question and only the right question gives you the right answer.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

This illusion is the environment in which you consider yourself to be a single being who is Spiritual - both of which is a 'product' of the illusion. The concept that it is an illusion is also a product of the illusion. And by the way, you are the answer looking for the question and only the right question gives you the right answer.

Thank you for your comment Greenslade

A what if there is no more questions?