Continued discussion on fundamentals of mindfulness meditation

[Gem]

Nothing much to say now, but have some time on my hands, so a bit of rambling just for kicks.

I said I was going to come back and talk about the motives behind mindfulness. In a nutshell, I think it is best to think of mindfulness as a healing, cleansing or purification practice (Buddhist say it's for 'purification, overcoming sorrow, staying truthful and attaining nirvana').

If you sit with the understanding that this is for my purification... that'll work. It's a correct motive. 'Overcoming sorrow' is what we would call resolving trauma, and 'staying truthful' is because this path of meditation is always and only the truth about yourself and the actuality of your experience. The truth is not the things you fabricate. Even more importantly, the truth is not negative thoughts, value judgments, self deprecation and all that nonsense the mind conjures. This is about the truth of life and insight into the real-nature of things. Not about what you think, what you want, or any other egomanic motives.

Hence, when sitting to meditate, if you understand this is for my purification/healing, it's a proper motive that aligns with the purpose of this meditation style.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

(Buddhist say it's for 'purification, overcoming sorrow, staying truthful and attaining nirvana').

The Sattipathana Sutta has the full explanation regarding the motives.
It ends with, " for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness.”

It explains the ' Four Arousings ' in depth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...oma/wayof.html

[Maisy]

i think the best motive is to have no thought or concern about yourself at all - to just be without a desire or goal or thought about anything - stillness, emptiness as what you are - motive..why we do what we do...why chose stillness, emptiness because its peace and truth and the light..its reality, the ground under projections of the bodies mind

[Gem]

One thing to understand is, I'm just talking about mindfulness in the way I'm inspired to. It's not like I know a bunch of stuff and I'm telling you how it is. I'm just narrating in one possible way.

In Buddhist ontology (what we can know), there is, most superficially, book learning. That's when you read or listen to this spiritual stuff and simply remember roughly what was said. The next aspect is applying reason to discern if it makes sense and is logical. The third aspect is the investigation by which you discover how it is true for yourself. Let's just call them memory, reason and insight for simplicity.

Reading this thread is for the first two ontological steps: you read and understand the words and; discern for yourself if it makes sense. If I quote a bit of Buddhist text, it has no additional truthiness. It's not like something is true because Buddha said it. Something is only true in the way it is true for you.

A whole room full of people will hear the exact same words or millions will read the same text, but each person is alone to glean meaning in the way they understand it, and discern for themselves if it's sensible or just a bunch of gobbledegook. If it has no contradictions and one facet of the narrative is consistent with all other facets, and it seems perfectly rational to you, then it's worth moving forward and finding out by investigating the way in which it is true for you.

Your reality as it is. The truth in the way you experience it. It means I can say abstractly, 'feel your breathing like this,' and a million people get it, but I cannot possibly tell you what your breath feels like. Only you know that.

This meditation is not future based in any way. The idea that one day in the future I will be enlightened etc. is desire for some sort of experience that is not actual. This mindful meditation exclusively pertains to reality as it is - the truth as it is for you. Therefore, the attention is supposed to stay 'here', and not be stretched into the future by hope and desire.

In that way, one feels the breath and knows exactly, without any doubt or distraction, 'This is the way it is'.

Broadly speaking here are some of my meditation influences.

Jon Kabat-Zinn https://www.mbsrtraining.com/jon-kab...n-mindfulness/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoLQ...cienceC enter

Richard Davidson https://centerhealthyminds.org/about...chard-davidson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyJQ...l=HealthyMinds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQrd...riFactorEngage

Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche https://www.yongeyfoundation.org/mingyur-rinpoche/
He is one of the monks who collaborated with Dr. Davidson's study on meditation's influence on mind. The following link will kick off six short videos of several minutes each on the Key Points of Meditation - Intention and Motivation Parts 1 & 2, Being vs Doing, Letting go of Expectations Parts 1 & 2, Everywhere, Anytime. It's a very good primer for anyone starting meditation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoPU...gyurRin poche

Whenever I lose motivation I always go back to this presentation titled "Becoming Conscious: The Science of Mindfulness" which is a panel discussion presented by the New York Academy of Sciences Nour Foundation. https://youtu.be/5TeWvf-nfpA?list=PL...ydVp1WpVnPNokg

Neuroscientists Richard Davidson and Amishi Jha join clinical mindfulness expert Jon Kabat-Zinn to explore the role of consciousness in mental and physical health, how we can train the mind to become more flexible and adaptable, and what cutting-edge neuroscience is revealing about the transformation of consciousness through mindfulness and contemplative practice.

[sky]

@JASG

I have listened to a selection of TED Talks given by Richard Davidson and also by Y M Rinpoche which I thoroughly enjoyed, I love YM'S sense of humour
Good choices JASG.....

[Gem]

I listened to the long video, and Kabat-Zinn mainly is speaking my language.

There was an interesting section on effortlessness. I think that can be misconstrued because the efforts in mindfulness are a bit more sublime that what we typically call 'effort'. Many spiritualists promote the effortlessness thing, but they don't explain with any insight what Buddhists refer to as 'Right Effort'. You can google that and see definitions from the text, but it really only defines surface aspects, very valuable aspects, just not the nuance of the understanding one understands through the actuality of practicing. Practitioners would know some difficulties and how to deal, so I'll just say effortlessness and easy are not the same thing.

The next part moved on to reducing stress, which is a big thing in Buddhism as well - reducing/overcoming/not creating distress. Jha said paying attention, not just that, but "paying attention in a particular way". The Buddhists say in the 'right' way ('right' as connoted in the 8-fold path), and that's what makes mindfulness a particular thing. Zinn said something like paying attention deliberately without judgment, close enough, though I would also add ardent attention, like full attention and/or examining closely. The Buddhist definition is along the lines of 'ardent awareness with understanding of impermanence free from desire and aversion in the world' (Satipatthana).

Jha talks about 'meta awareness', but incorrectly. Meta-awareness is by definition awareness of awareness. She means self-awareness. Zinn explained meta-awareness earlier on, so it's all good, just that Jha is talking cross-definitions. She explains things very well from an experiential standpoint, but unfortunately, the moderator keeps interrupting her and asking about the brain. She persists with the experiential explanation, and he cuts her off! That's very poor moderation.

Zinn comes back on with some very interesting commentary about how you realise you are not what you are thinking and feeling, and he's so concise about how that detachment completely changes your relationship with the things going on in your mind. I think their hopes with depressive disorder are grossly misplaced (he actually says that depression-brain activity only decreases a bit - so, yea), but as far as mindfulness goes, this guy is dropping truth, dude; especially when he clarifies it's not about 'getting rid of it', but, the way he puts it, 'its about becoming more familiar with the territory'. I just call that knowing yourself just as you are.

Great to see Jha come back in. She was definitely sidelined there. Her point is profound and it's a point I always talk about: "our ability to hold our own ethical code really relies on our working memory. If you cannot hold information in your mind in the moment that guides how you are to behave, you'll just go back to a reactive mode that could really be very problematic". That gets to crux of it. 'Reactive mode' is what Buddhists call 'craving' - the cause of all suffering. When Jha frames that in the military context, it paints an extreme and clear picture of how that works.

The talk ended with a bit of loving kindness stuff, which I found very apt. The rest is question time and I won't comment.

I thought the talk was excellent. It was a bit surface level and didn't go into the purification process, which kinda misses the point, and things like training the soldiers for better presence on the ground distinctly overlooks the purpose of purification. It completely skipped body awareness as well. As a critique I'd say the talk on the whole missed the mark, and I couldn't gel with Davidson at all, but there were many real and valuable gems to be discovered. I loved it. Brilliant!

[Gem]

The Rinchope video starts with motivation, which is very timely in this thread, but it sounds like vague and vacuous platitudes to me. I can't complain. Good points, quite correct, just overly generalised and almost sloganistic, and wrapped in a sort of pretentious nicety. My main critique is he was saying you become this and you become that, which is not wrong essentially, but it's ill-fitting as a motive. Mindfulness is a cessation of urges to become ("becoming"). It's much discussed in Buddhist texts, so it might be an idea to google that to get a broader context. I really can't extol anything with this one. I'd be skeptical of this feller generally. Next.

Originally Posted by Gem

I really can't extol anything with this one. I'd be skeptical of this feller generally. Next.

YMR is a world renowned Tibetan Buddhist. You should check out his biography and pedigree.

He is the son of the renowned meditation master Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and was formally enthroned as the seventh incarnation of Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche by Tai Situ Rinpoche when he was twelve years old. When he was twenty years old, Rinpoche was appointed as the functioning abbot of Sherab Ling Monastery. In addition to his extensive background in meditation and Buddhist philosophy, Mingyur Rinpoche has held a lifelong interest in psychology, physics, and neurology.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

The Rinchope video.I really can't extol anything with this one. I'd be skeptical of this feller generally. Next.

He wont mind , He's been described as the 'Happiest Man in the world '...

https://www.wildmind.org/blogs/on-pr...n-in-the-world