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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Non Duality

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  #21  
Old 01-08-2022, 08:29 PM
movingalways movingalways is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
Ultimately there is no self, Spirituality has any number of selfs/bodies and oneself is still individualised and therefore 'separative' ego. 'Oneself' is another name for ego - one's self is the perception one has of self.

This is the reason it's not a good idea to use non-Spiritual words/terms in Spirituality when there are better understandings to be had from Spiritual words.
As I have been saying and explaining in my last two previous answers to you, the words I have been using are spiritual words/terms. There is no point in continuing this debate, I don't see either of us changing our understanding.
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  #22  
Old 01-08-2022, 08:43 PM
movingalways movingalways is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
This is the crux of the matter. There is just awareness, within which arises the thought of "I". Let go of the thought of "I" and there is just awareness.
Let go of the thought "I" to realize the unchanging Absolute, then pick it up to reflect what is realized as in the tenth picture of the (Zen) Ten Oxherding Pictures, "Return to Society":

Barefooted and naked of breast,
I mingle with the people of the world.
My clothes are ragged and dust-laden,
and I am ever blissful.
I use no magic to extend my life;
Now, before me, the dead trees
become alive.

Source: www.buddhistdoor.com via Wikipedia
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2022, 06:35 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movingalways
What I am referring to is the process of nondual realization or awakening.

The Verse in the Gita refers to nondual realisation or awakening too. So when you say process do you mean methods that lead the seeker to awakening
or do you mean something else ? And what methods have you come across to awaken to the Self ? Are some methods more effective than others ?

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Last edited by Joe Mc : 02-08-2022 at 09:25 AM.
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2022, 08:46 AM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
So maybe the question should be: Do you, Consciousness, identify with your effects or with you as cause?

Or perhaps: Do you, Consciousness, identify with Spirit or with personality?
I've heard it said on one side of Enlightenment there are questions and no answers, and on the other side there's an answer and no questions. Problem is that answer can never be intellectualized or verbalized. I like how Rupert Spira put it and that is It's the Shining Light of Pure Knowing.

Now that I think about it that's another way to describe Lucid Waking. It's that Shining Light of Pure Knowing and That alone is, even though it appears as people, animals, trees, planets, stars, galaxies - the entirety of Existence. Mind can never fully grasp That but it can notice because it's knowing is an illumination by that Shining Light of Pure Knowing. Mind borrows it's knowing from That. Intrinsic vs.extrinsic.
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2022, 09:40 AM
Joe Mc Joe Mc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
Yes, from the classic non-dual perspective That is beyond cause and effect. Space, time, cause and effect are all appearances of and within That.

Yes it's a beautiful verse from the Gita and points directly to the Self, our real selves if you like. Or ourselves with a capital S
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  #26  
Old 02-08-2022, 03:29 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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thought of I

Quote:
Originally Posted by movingalways
Let go of the thought "I" to realize the unchanging Absolute,
When thought of 'I' is associated with narrow mind-body-intellect-ego-form-name-thoughts-possessions-relationships , the thought of 'I' should go .
However when seeker rises above all this and he/she associates 'I' with sheer blissful eternal omni-present consciousness without any narrow mind-body-intellect-ego-form-name-thoughts associations, it can be retained imho . Of course this is extremely difficult but many a exceptional people in history may have done this .
May be it's difficult to accept . I understand and i dont expect one to agree on intricately technical issue such as this .

My understanding on this is based on Shankaracharya who wrote beautiful Atmashatakm. In this stotra , he also denies everything like buddhists in first 5 verses but in the final 6th verse he writes following.
Quote:
I am all pervasive.
I am without any attributes,
and without any form.
I have neither attachment to the world,
nor to liberation (mukti).
I have no wishes for anything
because I am everything,
everywhere,
every time,
always in equilibrium.
I am indeed,
That eternal knowing and bliss, Shiva,
love and pure consciousness.

This was written at very young age by him to exhort his Guru to accept his discipleship.
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2022, 03:43 PM
HITESH SHAH HITESH SHAH is offline
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non-duality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
No, you think I think you're kidding. So where's the non-Duality in that?
Non-duality is orientation towards non-duality in a seemingly dual situations. This by itself means duality can and will exists in this world and that too for a good reason . However orientation towards non-duality is exhorted . Now till the life remains in this realm in this mind-body , duality will remain .So naturally the seeker will oscillate between these 2 states for complete life time which is perfectly normal .

In the life of laymen, these states of oscillation is there naturally in sleep-awake cycles. In sleep , one forgets all that with grace of god and undergoes blissful refreshing experience and in awake state everything is restored back . So this oscillation is a natural phenomenon .

Now non-duality exhorts seekers to take it to far better level to make life experiences better for all involved. Greater beings world over have already done such things in their life in varying degrees .
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2022, 10:48 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Love the OP question. I would say both. Now that my knowledge advances, I would say we are all always both cause and effect and they are infact the same one thing. Cause = effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH
Greater beings world over have already done such things in their life in varying degrees .
My ego finds this fascinating. Wondering, if the past was that, then how come this? But I think time does not exist in the way we think/believe it does. Once our believes around time are investigated deeply, all misunderstandings can make way for right understanding, to have a proper relationship with time, one that is based on foundational nondual understanding.

But the more the process of ego investigation is enjoyed, the faster it goes. We are infact here to enjoy the process of dispelling the misunderstandings about our true nature, even tho sometimes it seems tormenting, that is usually about our soul reminding us that we are ment to enjoy it and we can, as the process exists.

Asking myself, "What do I have to be believing is true to continue holding on to this believe?" to find the deeper core believe, which usually is dispelled if it is a negative believe, by our mere awareness of recognizing it. As this leaves more room for more truth, untill fear or despair creeps up, pointing out it's time to do some more "shining light of our awareness unto our believes." Life calibrates naturally as we help it to do so, in this way. Every negative emotion points at yet another false believe, that, if not able to let go of it, has a deeper more core negative believe.

Believe: first I was a kid and now I am an adult. Time is real. Past exists, future exists.

The illusion of time is a complicated one, exactly because it is so simple. There is no negative emotion around it, because it is the truth, but not the full truth. The full truth is infinitely simple.

Time is the realest thing there is, exactly because it is somewhat of a gatekeeper between infinite truth and egoic mental understanding. It is our relationship with our total self.

What we experience as "change" or "time" is infact the eternally and infinitely and absolutely unchanging uniqueness of existence itself. Therefor, one cannot go into the past, without simultaneously going into the future, which is a new experience of the past. This new experience is an unchanging attribute of the uniqueness of existence itself. So it happens even if we dont go into the past. And even if we do aswell. And when we stay in the present, the uniqueness of existence remains eternal and absolute. That is why the present also seems to be changing all the time, but it is not. What we experience as change, is infact our true unchanging being, which is existence itself, which is eternally and infinitely and absolutely and unchangingly unique, experiencing itself, becoming aware of itself, as infinite eternal unchanging absolute unique existence coming to know infinite eternal unchanging absolute uniqueness of existence. It cannot become anything else and therefor it cannot experience itself as anything but uniqueness.

And since it's uniqueness is infinite and eternal and absolute and unchanging, as non existence doesnt exist, there is no ability or possibility to experience anything outside of the uniqueness of existence, which everything is made out of it, it is infact not just made out of it, it IS it. Because creation is also an illusion, as everything is unchanging existence itself. And existence is unique. Existence cannot ever become anything other than unique. Infact, existence cannot change. All change is but a misdefinition of what that change actually is. It isn't change. It is the uniqueness of existence, that is actually not even happening, but it is BEING unique, as it cannot ever be nor become anything other than unique. Unique is existence itself. All experiences as existence and of existence, are therefor also existence, unique.

This is why time does not exist. And cause and effect are all very interchangable and relative and dualistic, because it is an egoic mental idea, that is existing within a realm of the illusion of free will. This illusion and illusion free will is based on confusion/misunderstanding. Once true self is realised, as unconditional love and eternal and infinite unchanging absolute uniqueness as existence itself, all things that are of a changing nature naturally dissolve themselves, to be realised for what it truely is: uniqueness experiencing uniqueness. As even experience and awareness is inseperable from this eternal infinite absolute unchanging uniqueness of existence itself. It is it. Awareness is a consequence of the infinite eternal unchanging absolute uniqueness of existence.

There are many ways to come to this realisation. For example, one of infinite many possibilities, is that one can create a strong enough effect, that it will cause its own cause. This undeniably dispells the illusion of time and change and free will. These things dont go away. They are just infinitely more clearly understood for what they truely are. How they truely fit in the big picture view of existence itself. To realise that nothing needs to change to realise nondual understanding. Because change has never existed to begin with.

With nondual foundational understanding, all misunderstandings naturally and effortlessly dissolve/resolve themselves, without even touching the misunderstanding or changing anything. Because the change is realised for what it truely is. Eternally unchanging infinitely absolute unique existence.

Therefor, we never went away from God/Absolute. We are as unchanging God/Absolute right here and right now. All past and present and future, are all a consequence of the uniqueness of existence itself, as we are it. One cannot experience anything outside of it, because there exists nothing other than this uniqueness that is existence itself. Therefor, all things and all experiences will forever remain unchangingly unique. And that is what gives the appearance of change, but what is actually being experienced is the unchanging uniqueness of existence itself.

So can you say, "first I did this, and then this happened."?
When you take your choice, and return it back to the nondual truth; that it is also the uniqueness of existence...
So your unique awareness of your unique choice, both will forever be eternally unchangingly infinitely absolutely unique. And this means, that if you continue to place your awareness on your choice, or cause, it will appear as if it is constantly changing. But neither your choice, and neither your awareness, are changing. What is actually being experienced, in that seeming changingness, is the eternal infinite unchanging absolute uniqueness of existence, out of which all things are made. Or rather, all things are it. So, nothing needs to change in order for you to experience as if things are changing. Because even the unchanging uniqueness of existence will always be unchangingly experienced in a unique way.

That is why all things are made out of unconditional love. The path of darkness and the path of light are both the same. They both come to this absolute realisation. Because there exists nothing outside of it, or inside of it. All things are it. Existence is. Non existence doesnt exist. Existence is unique. Its uniqueness brings about awareness, which is made out of the infinite eternal unchanging absolute uniqueness of existence itself. Uniqueness = existence. It does not and cannot even produce uniqueness. It has never been unique and it will never become unique. IT IS UNIQUE. Therefor, it will always be unique and that means that even the past will also forever be unique. There is nothing outside of this uniqueness that is existence itself. You dont need to go to the beginning or to the future to realise this. Even not realising it, is the uniqueness of existence.

Existence and eternity is this here and now moment unlike any that has ever been before it or will ever be like unto it ever again and again and again and again. But because this uniqueness is not actually changing, it is eternally unchanging and infinitely absolute... Then there exists only this moment, and all things are forever equally unique. Meaning, you have never experienced this before. And that is something that will remain true forever, and in all dimensions and non dimensions. You will never be able to experience anything that is not unique. Every experience you have will always be your first and last. It will always be undefinable except to say that it is unique. You could say that it has always been unique and always will be, but that is missing the point, that IS unique and that you are it. Here and now. Forever. Including all the things that you experience or will ever experience or have ever experienced.

It will never become dualistic, because existence does not change. It cannot become unique. It is unique. Forever. So something that is not unique cannot be experienced. This is why this idea of free will is an illusion, that always cancels itself out. That process seems painful, because you are literally going nowhere, which makes it seem painful when you are seemingly going somewhere, as if there has ever existed something outside of the eternal and infinite unchanging absolute uniqueness of here and now, existence, itself. Which is unconditional love. Which is everything. Which, you are it.

To say to oneself, I need to be here and now, is a misunderstanding aswell, because one has never been anywhere and anywhen else. But take this even further. WETHER YOU REALISE THIS OR NOT... YOU ARE UNIQUE EXISTENCE EXPERIENCING UNIQUE EXISTENCE. Always have been and always will be. Why? Because time does not exist, if change does not exist. Both are a consequence of the uniqueness of existence itself. Not something that exists. But the uniqueness of existence itself. The uniqueness of exitence is responsible for all things. This is the ultimate resolving of all time and space and cause and effect. Because it is the ultimate cause of all things. The ultimate Source. And it is you, and you are thus the Source of Existence as existence. You do not even do anything, and you leave nothing undone.

You do not even create change. You do not even become aware of your uniqueness to bring about the appearance of change.
Your awareness is the uniqueness of existence.
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  #29  
Old 03-08-2022, 12:56 AM
JustASimpleGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewwerrin
Once our believes around time are investigated deeply, all misunderstandings can make way for right understanding, to have a proper relationship with time, one that is based on foundational nondual understanding.
I think you're going round in circles trying to work it out in your mind. This is an impossibility as it's paradoxical to mind. Mind functions in duality and is wholly incapable of understanding the Absolute.

Concerning uniqueness, deep dreamless sleep is identical every single time. It is not unique moment to moment and not even unique between individuals. It's all the same experience of absence (of mind). That Sameness is ever present, regardless of unique experience. It's not experience, unique or otherwise. It's what experience points too. Even experience of absence (of mind) isn't It.It's just a pointer to It.

You knows you, however you can never know You. The Face can see its reflection but the reflection cannot see the Face. It's the difference between That which illumines and that which is illumined. Between Water and wave. You can know you are That, however you can never know the Absolute nature of That.

It is said the only relationship between That which illumines and that which is illumined is ignorance as in the end That is without a second. That is there is no you, only You. There is no reflection, only Face. There is nothing illumined, only Illumination. There is no wave, only Water.

I think what you are trying to understand is Maya and it is indeterminate as it cannot be said to be unreal because it appears and yet it cannot be said to be real because it's destroyed by knowledge. I know, another paradox but that's where we always end up with mind's attempts to understand.

Knowing and Being - Swami Sarvapriyananda https://youtu.be/kSbTaIDYTb0

Last edited by JustASimpleGuy : 03-08-2022 at 10:15 AM.
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2022, 09:41 PM
Ewwerrin Ewwerrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy
I think you're going round in circles trying to work it out in your mind...
...I know, another paradox but that's where we always end up with mind's attempts to understand.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.

I also resolved the cyclical paradox of duality. All vibrational paradoxes, which includes everything that exists. So can't go around in circles anymore. I would be lying if I said that I was going around in circles. Because I simply don't believe that. I have already resolved the paradox of time in the post above. But I do want to know what the limitations of it are (example: inability to communicate the truth) that would be very interesting. And I want to test it to its absolute maximum fullest. Preferrably test it for all eternity.

So feel free to share your pararox, I am always looking for the greatest paradox now, to really give this realisation the ultimate test. I literally got all eternity, (or as long as I have acces to this realisation and am able to communicate it relatively clear enough), to find a paradox that I cannot resolve. The point is also that I am not the one who is solving the paradoxes, the truth does that naturally. I just feel like I have found the truth, so far, because I haven't been able to falsify it so far. This seems to be an absolute nonduality that is complete in its ability to extend all the way to infinity and eternity and omnipresently.

The burden of proof is on the question/paradox. So I need more questions/paradoxes right now. To test this realisation/truth/absolute to its fullest. I have already proven it sufficiently to know its value exists, but I want to test it AAAAALLLL the way.

If the truth cannot be applied, then it is useless anyway. No matter how true it is. So I do wanna test it.
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