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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Most Anything > Philosophy & Theory

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  #11  
Old 16-07-2020, 08:13 AM
Just Tim
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordnael
Interesting replies here.

Concepts change from generation to generation. What was accepted ages ago is no longer accepted. My understanding is that true justice is a mystery, all humans can do is to speculate, create a provisional justice and keep improving it. It is supposed to benefit the majority, but if the majority or those in power are neither wise nor well intended, then the name Justice is a false front.

I agree with the fact that it is supposed to benefit the majority (well, to me it would be everyone). Justice in society is nothing like justice the concept. Justice in society, even nowadays, is no different from a time when someone had done harm to you, you'd slap them with a glove and challenge them to a duel, demanding reparation. Of course, nowadays we just don't duel each others, but the principle is the same, because during a trial, one demands reparation to another.

I have nothing against this idea, but shouldn't this kind of matter be taken care of in private ? Instead of being made public. Because justice, the concept, is supposed to make us grow, and move on. But justice, the system, is just happy with demanding reparations for Mr or Mrs X, Y or Z. That does not make people move forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Justice's purpose is to protect society. Punishment is relevant only as much as it is a deterrent for criminals and criminal wannabes.

Justice should be swift and fair to minimize anger, fear, hate.

Everybody should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The fact that the justice isn't perfect (who/what is perfect?) isn't a reason not to apply it, while working at improving it.

We often make the mistake to believe that we have all the facts, know the laws, and are able to make the correct judgement (like when watching a movie), and jump to conclusions, sometimes applying street justice. That's wrong and should be punished too.

Again, justice should protect society, and minimize anger, fear, hate.

Why don't people take charge of themselves, and learn to master their emotions ? Do you think society should "manage" people, because it's too hard for them ?

Last edited by Just Tim : 16-07-2020 at 11:41 AM.
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  #12  
Old 16-07-2020, 09:33 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 5,089
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim here
... Why don't people take charge of themselves, and learn to master their emotions ? Do you think society should "manage" people, because it's too hard for them ?

Woulda, coulda, shoulda ... Some people do, other people don't. Some people can, others can't. Almost every human characteristic is somewhere on a distribution curve.

Not sure what you mean with your last phrase, and don't want to assume.
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #13  
Old 17-07-2020, 02:37 AM
Ordnael Ordnael is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Himavanta
Posts: 393
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Justice's purpose is to protect society. Punishment is relevant only as much as it is a deterrent for criminals and criminal wannabes.

Justice should be swift and fair to minimize anger, fear, hate.

Everybody should be considered innocent until proven guilty. The fact that the justice isn't perfect (who/what is perfect?) isn't a reason not to apply it, while working at improving it.

We often make the mistake to believe that we have all the facts, know the laws, and are able to make the correct judgement (like when watching a movie), and jump to conclusions, sometimes applying street justice. That's wrong and should be punished too.

Again, justice should protect society, and minimize anger, fear, hate.

Things start with great, honorable ideals, but we see how the world tends to make them lose their qualities and turn into something else, since power and greed corrupts. In the tale of Atlantis this fate is inevitable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim here
I agree with the fact that it is supposed to benefit the majority (well, to me it would be everyone). Justice in society is nothing like justice the concept. Justice in society, even nowadays, is no different from a time when someone had done harm to you, you'd slap them with a glove and challenge them to a duel, demanding reparation. Of course, nowadays we just don't duel each others, but the principle is the same, because during a trial, one demands reparation to another.

I have nothing against this idea, but shouldn't this kind of matter be taken care of in private ? Instead of being made public. Because justice, the concept, is supposed to make us grow, and move on. But justice, the system, is just happy with demanding reparations for Mr or Mrs X, Y or Z. That does not make people move forward.

Sometimes conflicting interests can't be easily negotiated between the parties. Justice then acts as a parent figure, making sure that one doesn't violate the rights of the other. But yes, it would be good if justice was a tool that made a society improve morally, and not only protected the status quo.

It's like someone who's been wronged is holding a hot potato, he doesn't want to hold it for too long because his hands are burning, so justice hands the hot potato over to the one who commited the crime.

Those who suffer an injustice are not satisfied that the person who harmed them are no longer doing it, they want them to also suffer a negative consequence.
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My words of wisdom: Every civilization wishes to serve the Deity, but they can only do so to the extent of their wisdom and justice. & The greatest religious revelation is the correct interpretation of the things in the sky.
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  #14  
Old 18-07-2020, 05:26 AM
Just Tim
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
Woulda, coulda, shoulda ... Some people do, other people don't. Some people can, others can't. Almost every human characteristic is somewhere on a distribution curve.

Not sure what you mean with your last phrase, and don't want to assume.

I completely agree, with ifs and coulds we redo everything just like that. And indeed everyone's different to start with, but the law to begin with says no no, you get what I give and that's all. I think that's one of the reasons people are angry/unhappy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordnael
Things start with great, honorable ideals, but we see how the world tends to make them lose their qualities and turn into something else, since power and greed corrupts. In the tale of Atlantis this fate is inevitable.



Sometimes conflicting interests can't be easily negotiated between the parties. Justice then acts as a parent figure, making sure that one doesn't violate the rights of the other. But yes, it would be good if justice was a tool that made a society improve morally, and not only protected the status quo.

It's like someone who's been wronged is holding a hot potato, he doesn't want to hold it for too long because his hands are burning, so justice hands the hot potato over to the one who commited the crime.

Those who suffer an injustice are not satisfied that the person who harmed them are no longer doing it, they want them to also suffer a negative consequence.

I don't think it has to be like the Atlantide. Things can still be changed, it's just a matter of how much people want it.

Also yes indeed, justice acts as a parental figure, and that's one of the main points where it goes madly wrong. In my opinion justice would be far more closer to the concept as an advisor. Instead of saying "it's okay I'll take charge for you" a much much better alternative for people to grow would be just saying "we'll support you, but you have to stand up for yourself". That way people would grow, for sure.

When I mean advisor I mean it in a way like.. Peace keeper, you know to make sure no physical revenge, and instead help to find a solution. Sure not every situation's easy, but then again life isn't so we should try and make the best of it ! When you work hard for something, it has a lot more "value" in terms of growing.

And to finish people who want a negative consequence to affect those who harm them are litteraly giving themselves these consequences ! Revenge is not the way to go, reparations come from themselves when we heal, we've all been harmed, even those who harm others.
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  #15  
Old 18-07-2020, 07:16 PM
inavalan inavalan is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim here
...
And to finish people who want a negative consequence to affect those who harm them are literally giving themselves these consequences ! Revenge is not the way to go, reparations come from themselves when we heal, we've all been harmed, even those who harm others.

I agree.

I also believe that people should be treated according to what they do, not to where they're coming from. I would appreciate more a person who didn't do the crime, than I would appreciate a person who did the crime, and not understand that he shouldn't have done it in the first place. I appreciate the result more than appreciate the effort; smart work, more than hard work.

Nothing is perfect.
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Everything expressed here is what I believe. Keep that in mind when you read my post, as I kept it in mind when I wrote it. I don't parrot others. Most of my spiritual beliefs come from direct channeling guidance. I have no interest in arguing whose belief is right, and whose is wrong. I'm here just to express my opinions, and read about others'.
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  #16  
Old 18-07-2020, 08:29 PM
Just Tim
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by inavalan
I agree.

I also believe that people should be treated according to what they do, not to where they're coming from. I would appreciate more a person who didn't do the crime, than I would appreciate a person who did the crime, and not understand that he shouldn't have done it in the first place. I appreciate the result more than appreciate the effort; smart work, more than hard work.

Nothing is perfect.

I enjoy this talk a lot.

I understand that, but sometimes you gotta be bad before you can be good. Sure, that means harming people. But that also means growth for everybody ! But I agree with you, although intentions should be considered, the acts and their consequences are what's left in the end !

"I also believe that people should be treated according to what they do" is also why in my opinion "law" cannot work. Each case has to be reviewed with fresh eyes, I mean, everything that happens in life is unique, every event too.
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  #17  
Old 24-08-2020, 11:43 PM
MidasCloud MidasCloud is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 162
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ordnael
That is a quote by Thrasymachus, a sophist from ancient Greece.

A society creates an ideal of justice and attempts or pretends to live up to it, but doesn't true justice transcend opinions of what is good and bad, right and wrong?

For example, a person may commit a crime and be punished for it, like faking a document, and if he didn't get away with it he was only caught because the system was stronger than him, thus, proving that Thrasymachus is right.

Others may commit crimes and not be punished accordingly, or depending on what they did not even be considered criminals in the society which they live.

E.g. a company killing all life in a river due to an oil spill, the owners of the company will not be treated the same way that a bank robber is treated, even though killing and destroying is worse than stealing paper.

Can you prove that what we call justice is not simply the advantage of the stronger?

Unconditional Belief entails knowing that what people do, they are always right. In Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch, it's mentioned that justice is what people do, not what is done to them.

Information on Emotional Repressions and Release: *deleted*

Last edited by Miss Hepburn : 26-12-2020 at 12:24 AM. Reason: 25 posts to post a link
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2020, 08:23 AM
Heightend-Awareness Heightend-Awareness is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Central Coast, Australia
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There are two justice systems in the world. One for the haves (endless supply of cash that can afford the best attornies) and the have nots. The socioeconomically challenged and financially deprived who are more than likely to get the raw end of the deal.
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