Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #431  
Old 21-10-2021, 02:01 PM
hazada guess
Posts: n/a
 
Thanks for that zorkchop, it is now time for me to say goodbye. I think I am *ready*.
  #432  
Old 21-10-2021, 10:52 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,009
 
Sorry to see you go. I wish you well. You will miss out on a lot of worthwhile information coming out in the next few weeks.

On you go.

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -
  #433  
Old 25-10-2021, 01:02 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,009
 
Considerations 103 …

Two Refreshers …

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -

Two issues seem to continuously appear in the forum board. I would like to give short-form answers here.

First … the difference between Divine Spirit and Soul Itself is monumental … yet negligible. There are two “layers” of Spirit … aspects … levels … distinctions … use whatever word you wish. There is Divine Spirit … which is the precursor to all Existence … making up and sustaining all of the Pure God Worlds … that above the 5th Plane or the True Home of Soul. This level of Divine Spirit does not into the Lower Psychic Worlds.

Dropping lower into the Lower Psychic Worlds … the negative element is added to Divine Spirit so IT can form the worlds of opposites and provide experience gained from interacting with experiences that can only be gained by way of for or against … ignorance and wisdom … male and female … high and low … etc. The list is endless … making up the entirety of the Lower Psychic Worlds.

Neither of these levels or distinctions of Spirit is … or can be … aware of IT-self. Just as a sunbeam is not aware of itself as such … electricity coursing through wiring is not aware of itself as such … atoms are not aware of themselves as such. There is no overseeing, guiding or commanding “brain” that tells any level of Spirit … “Go be that” at the level of creation.

This is the function of Soul. Soul Itself is identical to Divine Spirit and is able to be aware of Itself. It has the capacity to distinguish between Itself and everything else … so to speak. Through the focusing aspect of Soul … Divine Spirit … and the Spirit in the Lower Psychic Worlds … are focused or manifested into all that we know of in all of Existence … in their respective levels or layers.

Soul can be aware of Itself … and is here to learn just what It is … in respect to that which makes up all Life … Divine Spirit.

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -

Secondly … the understanding of “dreams” has been stifled by both scientists and religionists for centuries. In an effort to keep everything in the physical body … medical experts put dreams as just random firing of neurons … the brain continuing to function as we sleep. In minds demand to criticize and negate anything unorthodox … they have laid a mountain of “possibilities” that explain it all.

Hopefully most … if not all … of those on this forum board know that Soul is not a physical entity … so It’s needs are not the same as is the physical body. Soul … does not need eight hours of rest in order to carry on the next day … so to speak. Dreams turn out to be a level of the trance states Soul leaves its physical vehicle to travel into the inner worlds … mostly … the Astral Plane. Dreams … are your continued life. The Astral Plane is so vast and varied … there is little if anything that cannot be “found” or experienced on the Astral Plane.

Additionally … consider when you close your eyes and use your “mind’s eye” to see something. ( Great job by the various experts to hijack the third eye as being that of the mind. ) Mind … cannot see. Mind … has no eyes of its own. So who or what is seeing during these times … and on during the dream state?

Soul.

Perhaps not the most popular understanding but nonetheless … true.

Please remember … Soul is seeing through the filters of the Lower Psychic Worlds. Inner sight is not “just” the sight of Soul … but is certainly seeing by way of Soul.

Just taking into account the standard principle of “As above so below” … or “As the inner goes the outer” … dreams are one layer less than the waking state … and is certainly “inward” compared to the physical. Dreams at night are our travels. Daydreams can assist in designing our own lives … or can be total fantasy … depending on how we “use” them.

One can learn to rise above the Astral and get to the Causal Plane … where records of our past lives are kept … and the individual can wrestle with this discovery in terms of what time is or is not. Anyone can define time as anything they wish … we have led past lives … it is impossible not to … and this can cause quite a stir in the individual understanding of various concepts and considerations promoted by orthodox scientists, metaphysicians, and religionists.

Lucid dreaming begins to take charge of all of this … or at least come to terms with it. The various planes are not singular areas. The Astral Plane again is quite vast … and has many, many sub-planes … so to speak. Any of these can be considered as a separate or higher / lower plane in itself … but that eventually turns out to be misleading. There are “signs” or “abilities” or “behaviors” within each major dimension that whisper the level the experience is taking place … the Astral … or otherwise.

As suggested … the Astral is huge … and if one wishes to find an area within the Astral Plane that is “formless” … it can be found … while still walking that dimension. How else is one going to learn discernment … for the later discoveries one will make as they continue on deeper into Existence?

Soul … runs all other elements of the individual being … although unknowingly. As the individual begins to explore all of this … there is always the dilemma … is the physical brain “running” Soul or is Soul “running” the brain? Are we so trapped within the physical that even a non-physical entity such as Soul cannot move beyond it via varying levels of trance states?

Slowly … involving many lifetimes and great courage … one does discover that it is Soul at the helm … always … although the ignorance of Soul Itself does keep one mired in the footsteps of discovery. This also supports the principle that it is tough indeed to understand where one “is” from any singular position beyond which there is no personal experience. One must go beyond where one is … in order to gain an overview … and “see” the position and its attributes … and continue from there … until finally exiting the Lower Psychic Worlds.

More later.

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -

A 90-post index is found at thread post number 370 … page 37

- - O-0-O-O-0-o - -
  #434  
Old 25-10-2021, 04:53 PM
Unseeking Seeker Unseeking Seeker is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Delhi, India
Posts: 10,939
  Unseeking Seeker's Avatar
Hello zorkchop!

I’d be happy if you shed some light on your understanding of awareness shifts through waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

Swami Lakshmanjoo and other masters as well talk of a stage where our awareness is unbroken in a seamless continuum. Body rests, we sleep. Thoughts continue, so we dream. Thoughts rest, we enter deep sleep. Then there is the transition, the flicker from stage to stage, till we ‘wake up’.

The idea apparently is to overcome stupor. Awareness, self-aware, self-existent, independent of mind-body.

There are some among us on SF, who speak of this possibility as attainable.

Pardon me if this takes you away a bit momentarily from your thread purpose.
__________________
The Self has no attribute
  #435  
Old 25-10-2021, 10:13 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,009
 
Seeker …

This can be approached from the most simple level to the more complex.

One … Soul Itself is not a physical being. So … why would Soul need to “sleep” at night to rest? At physical birth … does not Soul come into the physical body at first breath? So … Soul leaves the physical body during various periods of physical inactivity … and certainly does at other times … which can be most adventurous.

Another aspect … mind does not have an “eye.” So … what is “seeing” when we look within? If it’s not “mind” … then it can only be … (Soul).

What you say is true … overcome stupor. That’s a side asset to sleep. But science and religion has taught us to disbelieve. Are you surprised?

So dreams are our inner world travels at night … and this ability can be developed via meditation and contemplation and etc. One of the greatest dilemmas is that once again … science and religion and metaphysicans are constantly trying to convince us that it is the mind or the body or the emotions that’s really directing all of this during these attempts. They want the Universal Mind … which is very real … to be the main goal. That turns out to be untrue. Soul runs it all … but Soul doesn’t know this … and this is what It is here to discover … through great and constant obstacles.

If someone is dealing with lucid dreams … does that mean that the physical body is experiencing more of life via the dream state? Of course not. Soul … does the experiencing … through the various bodies or sheaths. Inner perception … inner “seeing” … is done by Soul. Thought … is not a visual seeing. Keep those two distinct.

Another con that the religions run on us is … just wait until you die and then you’ll know everything.

Wrong.

What’s the point of reincarnation if that were the case? How would we learn? We’d get one shot at it … and then die … and learn everything then. I mean … what??

But … it keeps the religions at the top of the “knowing” element … and earning mass money.

What some of the metaphysical masters say in that awareness is “unbroken” … yes.

But … Soul has to become aware of that level of perception during those moments of non-physical perception. That … does not come automatically. Soul must learn … *every* step of the way … *every* aspect … *every* element and facet. It’s a ruthless game. There are no shortcuts.

In the end … can all of this be “proven?”

Nope.

But it even begins to make reasonable sense … even to mind. Why would the most powerful creation in all of existence … need to go to sleep at night? Why would It become immobile and blind … during these periods. Why would all “seeing” be given to the physical body? Etc. Etc.

Your statement of overcoming stupor is a good one … except that I would put it as … overcoming the teachings of the past and what we expect from them. We are taught … not to believe. To overcome stupor … is to lay the physical body back … and then begin to focus on everything that is not physical sensation. What part of your overall consciousness is not … physically focused. All of that … is still a very living part of you. It is … awareness. It just needs to be directed and focused … and recognized as such.

One of the huge obstacles at that point … is that people begin to focus on materiality. They want a bigger house and a better job and better health and closets full of clothes and etc. There are elements of that tendency to focus on materiality that may come true … but the greater focal point is to assist … and even more … to help another help themselves. Not to do for them … but to help them learn how to do it for themselves. In that way … you improve the Whole. You train … the Whole. To … serve. Just because you have the capacity to do so.

I’ve rambled enough. There’s nothing that can be proven and science / etc will be happy to disprove. The lessons in discernment are endless. The only difference between any of us and the true spiritual greats … is that they know what they are … and live it.

We don’t.

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -
  #436  
Old 26-10-2021, 05:25 AM
Unseeking Seeker Unseeking Seeker is offline
Master
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Delhi, India
Posts: 10,939
  Unseeking Seeker's Avatar
Thanks zorkchop!
__________________
The Self has no attribute
  #437  
Old 26-10-2021, 03:06 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,009
 
Reply and Clarification …

A continuation from initial post #435 … Two Refreshers …

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -

Perhaps a bit of continuation / clarification here.

At the very center of all Existence is a Core Creator God … kept generic just to keep things simple. This is not a being … nor an entity … nor a “god” as we know it. IT exists … IT simply IS. There is no “gender.” This “Existence” is actually the only “thing” that is real. All else is a created “thing” or actuality.

This Core Creator God gives off an essence … Divine Spirit … I add the term “Divine” because IT has no negative element. This essence is the foundation … the building blocks … the forces and energies … the pre-manifestation of all below. IT is the “life force” of everything else … and sustains in IT’s own way … all of existence below the Core Creator God IT-self.

So … let’s stop right there. If this was all there was in all of Existence … you would have *nothing* else. There is no overseeing brain to guide Divine Spirit to go make this or become that. This would negate true free will. Divine Spirit is specifically the life force … with a few other facets that are developed along the way. But again … there would be *nothing* else in all of existence.

And so … Soul is created … as the focusing factor. so is of the same exact essence as Divine Spirit but It is given one all-important feature … It is given a real spark of the Core Creator God IT-self that allows Soul to be aware of what and where It is. But because Soul is still in the Pure God Worlds where there are no outside situations and conditions … and since Soul was just created and has no experience to understand even what “awareness” is … Soul is given the un-ceremonial boot into the Lower Psychic Worlds … where all attention is pulled to outside Itself … mind / physical body / emotions being “outside of Soul Itself … and the prime directives to learn who and what Soul is by first learning what It is *not.*

The Path begins.

Soul Itself is an individualized consciousness … or more specifically … and individualized awareness within the vast, vast sea of consciousness. Soul can become “aware” of anything in existence … with training … and certainly has to become “aware” of it in the first place. Our beliefs, opinions, viewpoints, perspectives, etc. … is our awareness … which makes up how we view LIFE within the totality of Existence. We become aware … by focusing our attention here or there. It makes little difference as to how real our beliefs are … how beneficial or detrimental … how honest or dishonest … how “correct” or “incorrect” … we believe and live them anyway … leading us down an endless path of discernment.

With the constant pulling of our attention into the outer situations and conditions … we leave little time or “room” for anything else. Science, religions, and metaphysics are happy to tell us what should be important. Societies and cultures tell us how to act and react.

But Soul Itself can become aware of … ANY-thing. So many people on the board get carried away with the entire duality / non-duality bit … claiming if there is an “I” and something else … that’s duality … wanting there to be some kind of total unity where individual awareness is lost. This is mis-defined … but … ( and it’s a *big* but ) … it can be done. You can totally withdraw your awareness and just … drift … just “be” … with no design to your beliefs or your life. Since Soul is the greatest creation in all of Existence … would it be wise to design such an awareness for Self?

Um … no … but … it can be done … and most … if not all … do it for a time. It is a dodge to dismiss responsibility to “figure it all out.” One becomes like a twig drifting down the river and this twig will figure out what rapids and rocks and pools and waterfalls are only when and if it finds itself in that situation. Would this be what Soul is created for?

Again … no … but It must learn … and learn It does.

So the awareness of Soul expands as one literally becomes aware … and then conscious … of what is around It … and then lives Life as perceived.

Many on this board are unaware that there is any distinction between the “levels” of Spirit … Divine Spirit and otherwise … which leads to the Pure God Worlds and otherwise … or the Lower Psychic Worlds of experience. By the time Divine Spirit is drawn into the Lower Psychic Worlds … IT is given the negative element which gives manifestation within the Lower Psychic Worlds movement … action … form … situation … condition … however you wish to term it. This is all held together by a hierarchy that designs, forms, and maintains these Lower Psychic Worlds through manifestation, a continuing of such features or action, and then an ending to same … so that there *must* be change … or action / reaction … or life / death.

But the Pure God Worlds above have none of this. They are comprised of the foundations … the attributes … the absolutes … the pure element of what will later be manifested.

As an example … let’s take strength … just the attribute of strength. Unapplied … it just is. Strength can be developed or directed into physical strength, emotional strength, mental strength, etc … but if it is unapplied … then it just exists on its own. The absolutes are held within the Pure God Worlds as features … unapplied … but they will be drawn upon and used when dropping into the Lower Psychic Worlds. One can live the attribute of unapplied strength … until needed. This is one of the purposes of holding unapplied absolutes within Self … to be used as necessary.

Clearly … there is more to the Pure God Worlds than just “absolutes.” That … is what is discovered once one enters these realms. The Path somewhat starts all over again. Once one enters the equator between these sets of “worlds” … if you will … the 5th Plane … the True Home of Soul … lots of other names for this “area” … you begin to know of the “higher” worlds while practicing your knowledge in the “lower” worlds … for further refinement. Soul learns what It is … apart from the mind / body / emotions. This is Self-Realization. Soul can finally recognize what has been going on “all this time” … and uncovers and knows Self as Self.

What complicates all of this? What complicates experience in the Lower Psychic Worlds?

Mind … coupled with the emotions. Mind … complicates … because of the design of the tool / mind itself. Soul lets mind take over the understanding of life around it … and mind becomes the master and Soul becomes the slave. Recognizing it first … and then working ones way-out of this slavery … is the name of the game … since mind absolutely *loves* to analyze, compare, combine, define, organize, judge EVERY-thing … making this up because it can and likes to … it “feels” good … it “appeals” … and so … we continue with what we believe to be true.

Once again I’ve gotten way too wordy … but this carries a good summary.

More later.

- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -
  #438  
Old 01-11-2021, 01:15 PM
zorkchop zorkchop is offline
Master
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1,009
 
Consideration 104 …

A True Spiritual Student …

- - O-0-O-O-0-o - -

Just what is a true spiritual student? What differentiates said individual from all the others?

Actually … it is quite distinctive. It is just unrecognized. There are three main groups.

Let’s set aside the common masses that have yet to even firmly consider the “God-side” of Life. These are the people who have yet to surmise that there is an actual “God” that has a bit to do with existence. The stance of the atheists is on the borderline here. There are some that just “don’t know” … and there are others that have determined that there *is* no God. The latter actually belongs to the second category.

So … the first level belongs to those who just do not know. True ignorance. They have yet to have the necessary experience to lead them further. This is *no* insult or judgment … anymore than judging a third grader if you are a high school student. Ignorance creates obstacles … and obstacles lead to misdirection.

The second level belongs to the intellectuals. These are the people who follow the old adage … “Knowledge is power” … which clearly can be true at the level of the Lower Psychic Worlds. These are the data gathers … the information gathers … those who turn to books, web sites, traditional and accepted teachers of the commonplace philosophical and religious preferences.

To earn a living in the Lower Psychic Worlds often demands awareness in what is necessary. There is no criticism here of data gathering. The differentiation comes when the individual settles into trying to uncover and discover what greater LIFE is all about. They will continue to add knowledge to their repertoire … believing that deeper or greater truth is simply a matter of finding the right book or web site or metaphysical teacher to study under. And this continues for a long … long time.

The latter stages of this phase carries one of the great battles on the entire path. The individual discovers that mind is not what it is made out to be … or initially … suspects so. There is the growing suspicion that mind is beneficial for certain discoveries and uses … but there is a *lot* of the unknown that must be discovered beyond mind. It is then that the individual discovers that mind is not only not the tool widely promoted to understand all things … but that mind itself is protective of its stance and beliefs almost in spite of what the individual wishes to learn. Ones own mind … somewhat becomes the individuals own enemy. It is not a pleasant discovery.

There is often a long period of a will to disbelieve … a desire not to know … or to even consider that there actually *is* an area or level that is “beyond” mind. These individuals simply dismiss any consideration of such. Mind is all … to them … and in a sense … this is true. The Universal Mind … and the stratified entities that run and control this Universal Mind … is used to design the entire Lower Psychic Worlds. Coupled with emotion … the study of the psychic or metaphysical sciences designate the Lower Psychic Worlds.

These people will become incredibly protective of what they believe to be true. They will protect themselves behind catchall and invincible phrases … such as “That’s just opinion … “ or “Give me proof … “ so they will not even have to slow down long enough to ponder the greater truth that is standing right in front of them. EVERY-thing is opinion … if allowed to be considered as such … and there is no “proof” that will prove anything truly spiritual. This is by design. “Opinion” and “proof” are simply licenses to dismiss. A secondary definition of mind is … habit … and mental habits / beliefs are incredibly difficult to revise or replace. A true intellectual will have their repertoire of words that will allow dismissal or escape from ANY-thing of choice.

How else is an individual to develop beyond the facets of the mind? They must be tested to gain the strength, courage, endurance, resolve, and risk to move beyond.

These people often become smug and arrogant in their attitude … since they have a “way out” of anything they come across. They often stay here for a very long time. They will find the exception that allows them to dismiss … anything. They will strongly dismiss anything that does not reflect their own individual stance.

Again … this is *not* a judgment or criticism. This is the nature and design of the Lower Psychic Worlds. This simply shows “where the individual is.” They must hold to and protect their position at all costs. This actually forms an attitude that is detrimental to further learning. It can be a tough, tough battle.

Slowly … there comes a time when the individual begins to consider … probabilities. They cannot find “proof” to move into new areas but they sense that this is “probably” the most wise approach. They begin to test … to plug in the new … to question the old … intentionally but privately … and they resolve into a true spiritual student.

This third level designates someone who is out to learn beyond the commonplace … beyond the conventional … beyond what they are told is “the answer.” If they become outwardly expressive about their explorations they are often ridiculed into silence … and so … they keep to themselves. There are actual determined “laws” that demand the learning of this silence … often … for simply preservation. Many of the great teachers have been killed for being too vocal and demonstrative.

They have been through the eons of data gathering and are beginning to suspect what they are constantly told as being “the truth.” They have been often hurt by accepting and following such statements from teachers and “those who know” … only to find that it is yet another blind alley. But still … they press on. They ponder. They test. They plug in new information just to see how it fits … does it answer more questions than form new questions. They have the deep desire and resolve … to know … to find out … to at least consider. They learn that their own mind can offer many personal battles just because it is mind as a “tool” … as a filtering process of choice that prefers to stay with the familiar and the conformed or popular data.

The true spiritual student begins to recognize the old promoted teachings and wishes for the beyond … not a deeper level of the same. Initially they often begin to develop the ethics and morals and values necessary to see and live the positive side of life. Eventually … their hunger for Greater Truth leads them to an authentic Master whom most have neither met nor would recognize … for They would promote awareness beyond the conventional and that often brings personal danger or grief … and so … Their silence.

These true spiritual students are exceptionally rare. Most will want to believe they are included in this designation … but they are not. True spiritual students learn to listen … and listen to learn … beyond the traditional teachings and are willing to risk their own controlling belies.

I will again state … these Teachers or authentic Masters *can* be found. They *are* here on this planet … and certainly on and within the Inner Worlds … but as with all things … there are prerequisites or requirements to be learned, lived, and expressed before this step can be fulfilled.

Once again … I did not design the schoolroom. Believe or dismiss … as you wish.

More later.

- - O-0-O-O-0-o - -

A 90-post index is found at thread post number 370 … page 37


- - o-0-O-O-0-o - -
  #439  
Old 01-11-2021, 03:19 PM
ImthatIm
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorkchop
Whatever protects rather than explores
Quote taken from post #432 Wrong thinking B

This jumps out as being a very profound statement to me.
I do need to watch this inner battle more.
  #440  
Old 01-11-2021, 04:39 PM
hazada guess
Posts: n/a
 
Zorkchop...........Regarding your post #440,I know that I said that I was going to stop posting on this forum for a while but the fact is that I find this forum one of the best teachers there is.Discard what you feel is wrong and save that which resonates with you.
The reason why I don't want a master is the fact that I want to learn myself with what feels right to ME and my inner self.that IMO is the best teacher.However,it is nice to have a framework to work from and I find your postings (not all of them) do infact resonate with me (as a guide).
Once again, I find your postings helpful to me but who on this earth knows the real truth. I'd rather make my way with curiosity rather than being disappointed when the time comes.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums