Ego and Consciousness.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

Not exactly empirical. This is a construct made up by science because any theory must fit into a materialist mold. Its basically apples and oranges anyway. Whether or not it's the souls influence or a biological brain, there is no proving it because the materialist applies the condition that spirit is not involved.

So you're suggesting that the reason we don't know more than we do is because the "materialist's" are hindering the way? Granted, the materialist's have a heavy influence because, according to the info from our 'senses', we just happened to have grown-up-in, and continue to navigate, a world/experience where our continued existence is dependent on material-based influences and outcomes. Were we to loose sight of the material component then our survival from day do day would be compromised.

While at the same time you seem to be suggesting that the spirit is overly involved in things that are quite material in nature.

Did you know that, when questioned in a clinical environment, that an individual will have a different view of their own mother depending on whether they are holding a warm or cold drink in their hands. That others have provided differing answers to question if they're handed a thin or thick clipboard to write on. And that when hooked up to brain machinery the researchers were able to determine the choices a subject will make, via the monitors, as early as 10 seconds or so before the person consciously chooses. Much of what we think of as "free will" is usually the bubbling-up of stuff from our unconscious.

There is a huge difference between the focus of the soul and our daily run-of-the-mill choices.

The soul provides the environment, while our physical orientation, since birth, is mostly responsible for the "thoughts" that we think, and the connections that we attempt to observe.

If you were to assemble all of your past lives into one room it would become instantly clear that there simply is no 'one' physical voice. Each life would be expressing it's conditioning based on the context that they happened to be raised in. We'd have a "separate" physical voice for each lifetime. Separate orientations, separate history, beliefs and language. That voice that you now have floating around in your head is not your soul speaking, it's more local than that. Our soul is in the background as a quiet observer.. while the physical constructs that make up thought and interaction (with both our own bodies and each other) is a reflection of our physical bodies. This voice in our head is dependent on the physical manifestation of complex neurological interaction within an environment that supports such things. That is not our soul that we hear, but our brains interpreting it's surroundings.

Originally Posted by Rokon

But there is something mysterious that couldbe looked at by science called consciousness. There is no sufficient mechanisms for a biological brain to be self aware, conscious of itself and influence its own behavior. To be its own observer too. If the influence of non-local consciousness on our behaviour was allowed by the materialists then science could get off the treadmill.

Again you are putting someone else (that you call materialists, of which you and I are among them, due to birth) in-between yourself and your own observational outcomes. You don't suppose that you're looking to blame someone else, for your not knowing more than you currently wish that you did about such things?

Much of the reason we don't know much about our soul is because it doesn't readily appear in such a way that's clearly relate-able. We can indeed blame others for such lacking but it boils down to the fact that the soul itself may be purposefully obscure. I enjoy watching youtube presentations of scientists talking among scientists, and when asked, the neuro-reasearches will readily admit that they haven't a clue as to where consciousness comes from. But they are getting very, very good at describing what happens when such consciousness is actualized in a physical way. They don't know it's origin but they do see, with increasing clarity, it's many avenues of expression.

When one considers the cultural inventory of interpreting such things then I find the scientific approach to be far more honest and investigativly rewarding. And in noway does such studies hinder the evolution of current knowing. If anything it helps to clarify much of the wonder that accompanies our being daily-channeled through the rich medium of a human experience.

[Rokon]

Originally Posted by organic born

I enjoy watching youtube presentations of scientists talking among scientists, and when asked, the neuro-reasearches will readily admit that they haven't a clue as to where consciousness comes from. But they are getting very, very good at describing what happens when such consciousness is actualized in a physical way. They don't know it's origin but they do see, with increasing clarity, it's many avenues of expression.

Yet you assert this:

Originally Posted by organic born

The soul provides the environment, while our physical orientation, since birth, is mostly responsible for the "thoughts" that we think, and the connections that we attempt to observe.

What neuro-reasearches have done thusfar is describe how the brain/body can operate similarly as computers do, NOT sentient, self-aware conscious beings.

Look. I know what science is saying about consciousness and they are nowhere near describing the biological mechanisms that can create the phenomena of consciousness. And this is also demonstrated in the failed expectations of Super AI, robotics; and is also demonstrated by the overreaching requirements for pharmacology to remedy neuroses. They are fumbling around trying to make a connection between the physical and consciousness and it's becoming clearer as time moves on that science has built a wall around themselves they can't get out of unless....

How long can one insist that the physical produces it's own form of consciousness, thoughts, influences, memories etc, without demonstrating a workable model? Not a vague theory about neurons and synapses working to produce thought magically, or consciousness embedded into “microtubals” or whatever the next story of the next decade will take us.

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by organic born

I started to write the long version but decided instead to simplify for the sake of brevity. If you want to go into this deeper, we can, there is a ton of interesting stuff that could be said on the subject. But in a nutshell, your "functional identity" in this lifetime is limited to "this" lifetime. Your soul barely registers it's presence. If you study how an "individual" is formed, from conception onward, it becomes clear that our definition-of-self is intimately tied to the manor in which we've batched neurons during this lifetimes experience. When we die, those neurons die as well. We will hardly know that this occurred though, since our being-of-presence will now take the front stage, while our "history" as a "person" will evaporate with the brain. We can still Remember this life, but in a very different way than we do now.

Our brains essentially stabilize around the age of 28, which is why so many seem to come-of-age around then. But outside of a "spiritual experience" what we do experience will always be physically specific and be run through the confines of our brains. We can give credit for our growing integration and effective-execution of life-challenges to our soul if we want to, but it's merely our brains, through the unconscious, getting better at how it handles repetitive patterns. The soul is always present, but that's not what customizes this lifetime. Our physical interpretation-of-self is via the neuro-plasticity of the brain.

Just popping in to say I agree.
It appears our brains are basically a self learning AI program specifically designed to function in this level of density.

We, as etheric energy beings, come into the body with the self-learning absorbing AI brain and remember much of what we actually are for a few years, but as the brain fills up with information from this world and begins to develop a personality/preferences that quiet spirit being we are eternally becomes harder and harder to perceive and relate too, as we become lost in the appearance of the Self being the thinking brain - until Awakening when we once again become aware of it and that we are it and learn to use both simultaneously - spirit knowledge/abilities and brain knowledge/abilities.

[organic born]

Originally Posted by CrystalSong

Just popping in to say I agree.
It appears our brains are basically a self learning AI program specifically designed to function in this level of density.

We, as etheric energy beings, come into the body with the self-learning absorbing AI brain and remember much of what we actually are for a few years, but as the brain fills up with information from this world and begins to develop a personality/preferences that quiet spirit being we are eternally becomes harder and harder to perceive and relate too, as we become lost in the appearance of the Self being the thinking brain - until Awakening when we once again become aware of it and that we are it and learn to use both simultaneously - spirit knowledge/abilities and brain knowledge/abilities.

Bravo!! You got it!

Our bodies are such that they're designed to operate as a vehicle for self feeding and self replicating. Our bodies don't need all the thoughts and types of awareness that we somehow think is critical and long-for. As souls, we attach to this body at birth and are slowly drawn into the physical mix. What was once our soul voice is now being experienced as a physicalized focus based on the stimuli produced by both physical need and cultural imperatives.


One of the best pithy ways that I've heard this explained comes from the free book that ian77 embraces called "Thinking and Destiny" by Harold W. Percival

http://thewordfoundation.org/b-Think..._Destiny.shtml

Accordingly, as you come more and more under the control of your body senses, you become less and less con-scious that you are something distinct from the body that you occupy. And as you grow out of childhood you will lose touch with practically everything that is not perceptible to the senses, or conceivable in terms of the senses; you will be mentally imprisoned in the physical world, conscious only of phenomena, of illusion. Under these conditions you are necessarily a lifelong mystery to yourself.

For me this is not some intellectual thing. I've been outside this bodily framework often enough that I've noticed the difference in how our soul is likely to communicate in comparison to our physical equivalent. Physical thought is encapsulated by physical interactivity. Even our thought's toward the spiritual will be impregnated with physical imagery.

Now in his book Thinking and Destiny, Harold refers to this as being "mentally imprisoned in the physical world" which I feel is a darker sentiment than needs be applied. We are indeed "self contained" within this format of experience but we "chose" to make this journey, we were not "sentenced" to such a thing. If we spend all our time 'wanting out' then of course it would feel like a prison. But should we instead relax, and go with the flow of what imagery we create while here, then much of what we resist will fall-away.

How we describe ourselves in relation to this journey is every bit as important as the journey itself. :)

[organic born]

Originally Posted by Rokon

Yet you assert this:
What neuro-reasearches have done thusfar is describe how the brain/body can operate similarly as computers do, NOT sentient, self-aware conscious beings.

The computer thing was a fairly brief trend, I no longer see this being discuses by the serious researchers I've been following. I was watching one group of serious, rather conservative, researches discussing awareness on stage and one brought-out that he'd had out of body experiences. He was infusing this experience into his studies. None of the other researchers, even more conservative than he, didn't bat an eye at his mentioning this experience.

Originally Posted by Rokon

How long can one insist that the physical produces it's own form of consciousness, thoughts, influences, memories etc, without demonstrating a workable model?

To be fair, you can't create a model that suggests otherwise. :)