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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Science & Spirituality

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  #141  
Old 19-04-2012, 01:41 AM
Kepler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
That is what I thought to be the case as well... But further researching about Schrodingers dead cat proved otherwise... When the detector detects the particle say... even after the fact... the result in the detector is still a wave... until upon you look at it and it collapses into a result. To see what the result is without being conscious of it is impossible, because you cannot look at it without actually looking at it.... Crazy I know... but that is the analogy... or the reality... depending what you believe.
This is the classic von Neumann scheme measurement problem in QM, and is precisely what is addressed in the Yu & Nikolic paper I linked to previously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
The reason for my view is that I keep thinking about the pseudo science experiments whereby random dices or marbles or whatever is rolled dropped or whatever ... and their patterns examined.

First done without someone in the room... then done with someone watching... and some experiments have shown signs of conscious influence... this is by no means acceptable proof... even for me... but I have an open mind.
Do you have a source for this? Looks interesting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
According to quantum de-coherence... the consciousness of the observer would actually cause the waves to all snap into one place which would result in showing the exact location of where the pebble entered the pond.
"According to quantum decoherence" how? Do you have any sources about how decoherence is caused by consciousness?


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoguy423
I'm not saying that de-coherence needs consciousness to occur... but consciousness causes de-coherence or seems to... (the seems to, cannot be proven either way).
Why does it seem to? Again, do you have a source? And why do you say "it can't be proven either way?"

I usually try to provide relevant links in all of my posts, backing up my assertions. It would be helpful if you did the same.

Thanks for the posts, whoguy.
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  #142  
Old 19-04-2012, 01:45 AM
JaysonR JaysonR is offline
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btw
This:
Quote:
The reason for my view is that I keep thinking about the pseudo science experiments whereby random dices or marbles or whatever is rolled dropped or whatever ... and their patterns examined.

First done without someone in the room... then done with someone watching... and some experiments have shown signs of conscious influence... this is by no means acceptable proof... even for me... but I have an open mind.
Wouldn't show consciousness.
It shows physical presence of matter changing.

To show consciousness, one would have to invite people into the room for the test but not tell them that dice are being rolled.

Then doing the same with their knowledge, and turning the blinder around (but not removing it from the room) so they can see the results.
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  #143  
Old 19-04-2012, 10:56 AM
Free Bird
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*Brain explodes!*
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  #144  
Old 19-04-2012, 05:00 PM
Kepler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Bird
*Brain explodes!*
Yeah, that tends to happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JaysonR
=
To show consciousness, one would have to invite people into the room for the test but not tell them that dice are being rolled.

Then doing the same with their knowledge, and turning the blinder around (but not removing it from the room) so they can see the results.
Yeah. It will be interesting to hear the details of the experiments.
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  #145  
Old 19-04-2012, 06:57 PM
JaysonR JaysonR is offline
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Kepler,
I think I have an idea of how an experiment could be done simply to test the basic concept of the "crests of matter" theory I've been referring to.

If what we are looking at are indeed particles at the edges of matter in like fashion to water molecules at the crests of waves (or, rather, molecules a foot above the crests), then we may be able to borrow relative behavior.
If I were to put two ocean waves by each other and look at the molecules a foot above the crests, then I would see impact from each "system" on the independent-yet-entangled molecules a foot above the crest of each "system" (wave).

Therefore, it may be possible to set up an experiment whereby a double slit experiment is done side by side in adjacent rooms.
Each room would have a screen/detector (screen for build-up tests | detector for post slit, pre-screen tests [leaving both setups "on" all the time would be ideal]), and not a person (as people are of various motion and mass).
At first, use a thick divide between them. Then the divider would be halved in thickness. And finally it would be reduced to a mere vale/screen.

The setup's would be positioned to both be near this divide between them, parallel to each other.

Each round of testing would run:
Do a double slit on side A without side B.
Repeat 5 times.
Then side B without A.
Repeat 5 times.
Then side A and side B.
Repeat 5 times.
Then side A starting and side B starting shortly thereafter.
Repeat 5 times.
Then side B starting and side A starting shortly thereafter.
Repeat 5 times.

After this, change the divider width and repeat the process for the new divider width.

The same types of particles are used in side A and side B.

(ideally, it would be very nice to "paint" the particles from A and B different "colors", but I can't think of a way to do this without affecting them adversely from their "natural" state)

The only thing that changes is the on and off of more particles in the total system (total system is local system A and B), as much as possible to control anyway.


If the theory has any merit, then when B starts after A, or A starts after B, or A and B run together; the results should seem to be impacted from another source which correlates to the opposite system.

It would be interesting to do this in a variety of slit manners, but the first that comes to mind is the electron interference build-up test.
Then it would be interesting to redo the entire experiment with the implications of the "Double-slit experiment, copenhagen, neo-copenhagen and stochastic interpretation of quantum mechanics" tests of 1987, that examined atomic inhibition of slits and the affect upon the interference results, in mind.

Equally, it would be interesting to design an arrangement of single slit on one side and double slit on the other, as well as opposing single slits on A and B.
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  #146  
Old 21-04-2012, 04:20 AM
hybrid hybrid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kepler
Bell's theorem is about locality and realism.

From the wiki page:
Exactly the fact that either one of our notion of locality and realism must be false leads us to the word nonlocal to describe this new physical reality.

Furthermore, alain aspect follow suit the epr, bell with his own experiment and his conclusion was that entanglement of particles is only possible if the force field velocity that connects the paired particles is faster than light speed.

That the guiding wave, in the general case, propagates not in ordinary three-space but in a multi-dimensional configuration space is the origin of the notorious "non-locality" of quantum mechanics. It is a merit of the de Broglie- Bohm version to bring this out so explicitly that it cannot be ignored. (John Stewart Bell)

*

Last edited by hybrid : 21-04-2012 at 05:39 AM.
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  #147  
Old 21-04-2012, 04:45 AM
Angelca
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thank you for sharing
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