Body, Emotions, Mind … and Beyond

[JoeColo]

Hi zorkchop, I went to find the indexes, and they're not exactly where you say they are. No. 1 is Post #368, Page 37, and No. 2 is Post #499, Page 50. I think it was from admin deleting some posts.

JoeColo

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 579 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zorkchop

Notice how very few … if any … of these online gurus tell you what to “do” after you get the mind to stop.
I know this is just a bunch of very vague words that really tells you very little … if anything. In a sense … that’s my point.

I'm curious to see where you go with this ... once one quiets the mind.

This seems akin to the Christian "Cloud of Unknowing", the Zen "Not Knowing", and so on.

I agree that one must go beyond the mental though the mental continues to serve a purpose as you duly noted. ("This does *not* mean that you leave the mental approaches aside and never use them. Far from it.")

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by JoeColo

Hi zorkchop, I went to find the indexes, and they're not exactly where you say they are. No. 1 Index is Post #368, Page 37, and No. 2 is Post #499, Page 50.
I think it was from admin deleting some posts.

Correct, as most my have realized inappropriate, rude comments can be deleted from a thread...when caught, we miss many.
BUT...I corrected some in the last index so far, in Index No 2 and will correct more ...they were only 1 or 2 post #s off, tho. :)

[zorkchop]

Mizz H …

Wow … thanks. I checked them out yesterday and they indeed had moved a bit. I was going to chalk it all up to computer bogeymen. Maybe I’ll have to revise my phrasing in those references. I wasn’t sure anyone used them anyway. Maybe I’ll have to use the phrase … “in the vicinity of” … and give a page or two reference.

Still Waters …

I’m going to try and dance around the particulars on this for the next few posts … but I am totally unprepared to get deeply into the “what’s there and how to interact with it” aspect of the Pure God Worlds. That’s the point of the entire schoolroom. There is *much* more to “what is there” than can be expressed in a few forum posts … let alone finding the words to express same when the mind is just going to chew up anything I put there and take it all back into the mental realms. If one is truly interested in moving beyond the mental worlds … they need to find a set of teachings that do so … and follow them. No one is going to be able to accurately describe what needs to be “done” or the differences in perception in a few online videos. But I’ve been pondering a few “stopping the mind” posts which I will be getting into in the next few weeks.

I do not wish to be evasive here. The lessons involved … the learning … in taking the steps beyond the mind and working into the true “Kingdom of God” … Pure God Worlds … can only be accomplished by taking the steps … and having a true authentic Master to show you the way. One obvious lessons here … finding out just what a “true Master” is … and is not … and how to find one. As with everything on the path … this step is not up to me or what is written here in any way. That is all up to the individual … to do what is necessary to be successful here. Until then … it is all mental gymnastics which … is the nature of the game here … and can be fun in its own way and time.

On we go.

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[zorkchop]

Still Waters …

After giving it a bit more thought … one thing I will say … the true move into the Pure God Worlds could never be “categorized” or “labeled” as a “cloud of unknowing” or a “not knowing” … or any similar term. These terms are given to those who managed to stop the mind … then have no clue where they “are” in it all other than in a quiet vacuum … and so … give it a lofty label that sounds impressive. These labels are those philosophies or religions attempts to claim that are farther along than they actually are … and yes … this is part of the game too … the mental game. Again … not being derogatory here … just being honest. When one truly advances into the Pure God Worlds … they can then look back and recognize the mental attempts to believe they are more advanced than they really are … which is a point I brought out a bit more in the above post. In other words … the “cloud of unknowing” and the position of “not knowing” would be akin to being in the Pure God Worlds … and not the other way around … and these … and similar positions … would be the epitome of the belief that stopping the mind is the ultimate … which … one has to be able to do at least to a slight degree before that realization is reached and then uncover that there is *much* more … beyond.

Hopefully the next 2-3-4-5 posts will bring out a bit more on this.

Working into the Pure God Worlds demands a distinct procedure … or set of procedures if you will … given by a distinct level of authentic mastery. Mind wants to make and take shortcuts … leading to all sorts of tangents on the path. Realizing that certain signposts are necessary to authentically distinguish “being there” verses “being here” … those signposts are provided as personal inner experiences that are vividly and honestly experienced. Until one truly advances into such levels … they are walking preliminary steps … which … we all are.

All of this just portrays just how volatile, tricky, and deceptive mind can be … while at the same time … fully acknowledging the honest benefits of understanding mind to be the tool that it is … within its own realms.

On we go.

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[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 575 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by zorkchop

In other words … the “cloud of unknowing” and the position of “not knowing” would be akin to being in the Pure God Worlds … and not the other way around … and these … and similar positions … would be the epitome of the belief that stopping the mind is the ultimate … which … one has to be able to do at least to a slight degree before that realization is reached and then uncover that there is *much* more … beyond.

I can see your point that the "cloud of unknowing" and the position of "not knowing" would be akin to being in the Pure God Worlds .. and not the other way around.

I have always looked upon the "not knowing" as being the GATEWAY to what I call the expanded consciousness (which may or may not be your "beyond") where one knows without thinking what is in the best interests of the Totality and that lies far beyond the realm of the 5 senses. Others may call this God-consciousness, Christ-consciousness, Krishna-Consciousness, Buddha-consciousness, etc.

For some, as you indicated, the quiet mind may indeed be nothing more than a blank mind and that is certainly not the ultimate.

Having practiced under masters of various wisdom traditions, I am looking forward to the methodology that you will be presenting.

NOTE: I had my first glimpse of the verifiable vast panorama beyond the realm of the 5 senses during my NDE many many years ago. That experience was mind-boggling and life-transforming. It redirected my attention to meditation.

[zorkchop]

Reply to those who are interested …

Please read the current post #570 … Considerations 143 … page 57 … as this reply will build a bit on that post and that post has led to these interactions.

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I will rarely … if ever … get into methodology. It would be incredibly irresponsible for me to do so. Another reason … what I have been discussing for the last 140-odd posts … comes from a set of teachings that leads each individual to discover SO much more than what I could even begin to put in here … and that cannot possibly be discussed in a forum board. Another reason … if I gave methodology that took the individual into an area s/he was unprepared for … and that individual got themselves into trouble … I would have to take responsibility for that.

The set of teachings I have been following for the last good number of incarnations and managed to uncover in written and personal form this lifetime … is incredibly old. Anybody on this forum board has read too many times to remember … “Follow MY set of teachings and they will lead you to Truth” … only to be disappointed again and again. I understand that. The teachings I am a part of were *only* taught on the inner before this current period of time and there are reasons for that and I will not discuss them here.

So … my approach has been … to give you a glimpse of “what’s there” … and that it is very, very real … and attainable … for those that wish to devote themselves to greater Truth … which by now … with the over-use of the word Truth … can be somewhat meaningless.

A parable told to me so very long ago … I hate to even consider a date for it …

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You find yourself walking down a gorgeous valley between two mountain ranges on either side. The valley is breathtakingly beautiful … the mountains even more so. The trail is adequately worn so you will not get lost in this unfamiliar region. You turn a corner and up ahead you see the path come to a crossroads. As you approach the crossroads you glance down the path that benches to the left and you see picnic tables, barbecues, children playing, adults engaged in leisure sports, the scent of hamburgers and hot dogs float through the air … it is a nostalgic scene. Glancing to the right-hand branch … you can see tall buildings that have the university feel to them … libraries … very scholarly people walking around and these are easily recognizable, familiar, and alluring.

Now you turn your attention to the path that would continue straight ahead and it continues for maybe 100 feet beyond the crossroads and then disappears into a deep, dark forest. It defines caution and appears most forbidding.

So now … two questions …

One … which path would YoU take?

All would choose the familiar and enticing scenes. Who wouldn’t? VERY few would wish to enter to the great Unknown … no matter how one wishes to define a vast, totally unfamiliar zone of relative unexplored territory. The number of entities that have made it into and have become established here are incredibly small in number … relatively … and that is an understatement.

Secondly … how long will it be … and what experiences will you have to undergo … before you choose the path straight ahead?

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The path beyond the mental realms is not just another interesting place … to be added to your collection of experiences in the Lower Psychic Worlds. What’s “there” … is much less important than what one has to face before they can find out for themselves. The Pure God Worlds are totally different than the Lower Psychic Worlds. Consider this … since the creation of each individual Soul in the Pure God Worlds and the subsequent launch into the Lower Psychic Worlds for education … Soul Itself has *never* experienced pure consciousness … in spite of all the proclamations of the online guru’s who have claimed such. In no way, shape, or form … literally … are there recognizable facets there that mind would grasp. In a previous post … I suggested the north pole and how the human body would need protection there or it would not survive. Soul Itself needs the bodies for protection. Soul Itself … on Its own … could not survive in the Lower Psychic Worlds. Well … mind could not survive in the Pure God Worlds … for much the same reason. It is a totally and distinctly different vibration … if you will … and mind cannot “go” there.

So … what would be “necessary” to face, solve, and resolve to “get there” … is what most of these posts addresses in subtle or direct ways.

In considering Still Water’s reference to “clouds of unknowing” and “not knowing” … ponder this … rather than approaching it all through the path of mind where all the aspects of mind … the reference to “ I “ and ego and thought itself and beliefs and opinions and on and on and on … and wanting to stop mind to get beyond it all … perhaps … just perhaps … the “not knowing” and the “clouds of unknowing” refer more to those troubling aspects and beliefs that one “knows” that holds the individual to the Lower Psychic Worlds and prevents them from venturing on more deeply into Truth. These beliefs that we hold … SO many of them must be given up … or you will get nowhere. Maybe this is the “unknowing” that has been subtly whispered in so many ways.

Will you have to set aside your old beliefs in order to really venture beyond the mind? Probably.

Will you have to face the memory of being set up SO many times by empty promises of teachings that lead to greater Truth only to be disappointed and face how to get beyond that? Probably.

Will you have to find a set of teachings that has an authentic Master at the helm and follow what He says? Probably.

Will He ask you to face aspects of Self that you certainly do NOT want to face? Probably. ( Isn’t the the point ? )

Will you finally have to come to terms with words and definitions and beliefs that you currently hold as true and do heavy revision with all of that? Probably.

Will you find a way to dismiss all of this and sidestep it all? Probably.

Are you willing to truly uncover and realize just how deceptive the mental ways are? Probably.

And so many more facets that are rarely if ever discussed openly. In a sense … that’s why I am putting this information in here.

So … what one has to solve and resolve before the more advanced steps are taken is much more important than methodology to get someone beyond where they are before they are ready.

This is not a game … people. When you begin to ponder on taking this step … this vaults you into what is real … very real indeed … and all here in the Lower Psychic Worlds is real enough but is not the foundation of creation itself. In the Pure God Worlds … there is nothing to manifest. There are no actionable experiences. You are not only very much on your own … but there is nothing familiar that you can hold onto. The Pure God Worlds are not just another place to visit. Game-players and shortcut designers are not allowed. You wash out almost instantly.

There is not an “expansion” of consciousness. That is minds approach … where to “grow” in mental awareness you must “add to” what you already hold. Stepping into the Lower Psychic Worlds … they “expand” to the limits that can even be discerned and experienced. Stepping beyond … it is a distinctly different approach, region, and level. Since you will most likely continue your present incarnation when you take this step … you quickly learn the dissimilarity between the two and when each one is “used” … so to speak. It would be unnecessary to “use” the Lower Psychic Worlds facets and practices in the Pure God Worlds and so you “live beyond” them for the moment you are there … but when you return to the Lower Psychic Worlds … the “purity” that Soul Itself gains by doing this … one learns to hold to that while still using the Lower Psychic Worlds bodies. You truly live in two worlds. And yes … I have seen on the forum board … the word “purity” is a loaded word. Nonetheless … on we go.

So I am going to drop back and continue with my approach … offering more of what one has to face to “get there” and what might be found “there” … rather than try to actually “lead” someone there. I will admit … I am totally unprepared to do that personally. I may have the ability to “stop the mind” on command … but I do not as of yet have the ability to accompany another into the Pure God Worlds … take them there and help them get established so they can continue on their own. That … you need an authentic Master for.

Will you have to eventually find an authentic Master and follow His lead?

Probably.

Please consider … *very* few have *ever* worked with an authentic Master … no matter the claim otherwise.

So many of us confuse personal stubbornness and ego with pride of doing it on ones own. We believe such stubbornness is a strength. Skepticism … yes. Refusing to allow it to begin toward for you? Not so much. We can find endless excuses / reasons to stay where we are.

With eternity to work with … each one of us *will* take these steps.

Just when … is up to you.

On we go.

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[hazada guess]

Noted Zorkchop.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 570 EXCERPT

Originally Posted by zorkchop

.. the “not knowing” and the “clouds of unknowing” refer more to those troubling aspects and beliefs that one “knows” that holds the individual to the Lower Psychic Worlds and prevents them from venturing on more deeply into Truth.

There is not an “expansion” of consciousness.

you “live beyond” them for the moment you are there … but when you return to the Lower Psychic Worlds … the “purity” that Soul Itself gains by doing this … one learns to hold to that while still using the Lower Psychic Worlds bodies.

First of all, I did review your post 570.

https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...&postcount=570

Secondly, I'm not sure that you understand what is generally meant by the "not knowing" or the "cloud of unknowing". My understanding is that it is certainly NOT what you described in your post. It has absolutely nothing to do with what you call "those troubling aspects and beliefs that one 'knows' that holds the individual to the Lower Psychic Worlds and prevents them from venturing on more deeply into Truth." Somehow, you interpret "not knowing" as some kind of troubling belief. It is actually quite the opposite as what you call "troubling beliefs" are left behind.

As for your statement on "expansion of consciousness", there is most certainly an apparent expansion of consciousness .... from the perspective of the little self-limited "separatist" individual (choose whatever terminology suits you) .... into what already exists. From the other perspective, of course, there is no expansion of consciousness but there are apparent self-imposed limitations as one can can get entangled in the "lower worlds".

When one stills the mind, my understanding is that one soars into the sky of consciousness and (using your terminology) " the 'purity' that Soul Itself gains by doing this … one learns to hold to that while still using the Lower Psychic Worlds bodies".

I'm not sure if we are saying similar things using different terminology and switching perspectives between the "two worlds" as we write. As you duly noted, "You truly live in two worlds."

[zorkchop]

Still Waters …

Nice touch. I noticed on the direct quote from my post … you neglected to include the … “perhaps … just perhaps … “ which came directly before the sentences you quoted … since I was not trying to make anything out of either stance or position. I’ve used a number of links you have put into the forum board to follow and see what some of the online teachers are saying … I know what they try to make out of the “stilled mind” aspect … and the two approaches you put forth *might* be extensions of that. I never said anything about them being “troubling.”

It’s impossible to make distinctions here to others who have never traveled those areas … but yet … I guess that’s the whole attempt on these posts. How does one take the generic … the un-manifested … the unspecified … and discuss it with others who have never been there … when just the description is very tough to do and certainly ripe for misinterpretation and dissection.

As I told Greenslade in a much earlier post … I would *love* to have a devote intellectual start their own series on the “layout and reason” of Existence … again … using generic words there. I think it would benefit many.

I respect you, Still Waters. You have studied long and hard. I admire that. All I can do at this point is to continue to put in information as I see fit … and let people make out of it all whatever they wish. Trying to debate words such as “apparent” and “purity” and “self-imposed limitations?” and such … that approach belongs to the intellectual. In a sense … it is an absolutely fabulous place to be on the path … being in the rather advanced intellectual stance. When the mind “works” for the individual … it is wonderful. It’s kinda like … when “marriage” works between male and female … when it *really* works … there are few other experiences like it.

Make out of my post(s) whatever you wish. I’ll be continuing on next week.

On we go.

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