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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Meditation

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  #21  
Old 15-01-2015, 12:44 AM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
Trying to find oneself IS the noise and drama of life.

There is no bridge and no gap....Spirituality gave you the gap. I have no gap (sounds dirty) I just look you in the eyes and say hello, one person to another.

The idea is that people get lost in the noise and drama of life due to ignorance and delusion. The purpose a spiritual path in which one aims to "find oneself" is that it allows them to step out of that noise and drama; it allows them to develop the perspective to remove their identification with the noise and drama. This brings freedom from that noise and drama. There is no longer identification with it, it no longer burdens the mind. It is met with peace and inner well-being, and the wisdom has been gained that is then used to transform this noise and drama into love and learning experiences for oneself and others, rather than adding to the conglomeration of distraction and negativity in the mind.
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  #22  
Old 15-01-2015, 03:23 AM
Argento
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Wow! You sure put a lot of work into your replies. I'm afraid mine may be a little unsatisfactory in comparison.

Everything you tell me, I have heard before from a guru or a book. These are other people's words being typed by your hands, because they are in your mind...same as everyone else, including myself.

Every word and thought in our minds is conditioning. We didn't decide to learn English, or to brush our teeth. We saw and copied, because it was useful. This means that every thought of spirituality or every instance we sat in meditation, we copied someone else...Then we call other people sheeple for going along with the mass opinion not understanding how we are exactly the same.

We can't get away from copying,
If you meditate, you copy. Spiritual people are just people after all
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  #23  
Old 15-01-2015, 06:09 AM
VinceField VinceField is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
Everything you tell me, I have heard before from a guru or a book. These are other people's words being typed by your hands, because they are in your mind...same as everyone else, including myself.

We can't get away from copying,
If you meditate, you copy. Spiritual people are just people after all

The ideas I have shared about meditation and the spiritual path come from my first hand experience. I would not be sharing if they were simply words copied from others, as there is no wisdom in that, and I wouldn't be able to honestly and confidently say these things if I had not experienced their truth myself.

The fact that these ideas are similar to the words of others who have followed a similar path of meditation and spirituality only serves to validate these statements, as their truth has apparently been experienced by so many.

If a person tells you that if you release a hammer from your hand it will fall on your toe and cause you pain, and then you experience that this is true and warn your friends, are you copying the person who first told you that, or are you relaying wisdom you gained with the help of knowledge shared by other? Or if a person tells you that breathing deeply calms the body and mind, and then you try to breath deeply and realize that this is true, you experience the physiological process that reliably brings about those particular states of body and mind with deep breathing, and you share it with others, are you copying, or again, are you relaying knowledge you gained from experience? Everything we know is the result of the knowledge of those who came before us. This does not make these things any less real, any less true, any less useful, or any less beneficial. Calling our knowledge a "copy" is of no value in terms of its real world application.

Quote:
Every word and thought in our minds is conditioning. We didn't decide to learn English, or to brush our teeth. We saw and copied, because it was useful. This means that every thought of spirituality or every instance we sat in meditation, we copied someone else...Then we call other people sheeple for going along with the mass opinion not understanding how we are exactly the same.

The fact that our minds are conditioned does not mean that every thought, intention, or action that we volitionally create is a forgery. The idea behind meditation and the spiritual path is to break free from this conditioning, particularly when it serves to create suffering in our lives. But not all conditioning is bad, and in fact it is wise to use the ideas of others when they are grounded in truth and wisdom and serve to improve the conditions of the mind. Conditioning is how we learn, grow, and evolve, and the idea is to recondition our minds to produce what we truly want in life- peace, love, and happiness.


Going against the grain, as it seems you have made your mission here, is only wise when it serves to benefit oneself and others without harm or deception. I believe I have adequately revealed that your endeavor here is not an example of this.

Not only are my responses to your main points grounded in experiential knowledge, but they are also logically sound. I would challenge you to provide examples of your experience or simple reason in response to my statements in an attempt to revalidate your claims, but I have a feeling we will just continue to get nothing useful or beneficial.

Take care
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  #24  
Old 15-01-2015, 07:01 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
I get that meditation is not escaping.....quite the opposite. My question was why meditate in the first place? To become happy, or peaceful, or to open yourself to the universe, or to stop certain emotions that arise during the day?
Basically each reason for meditation is that the person wants to change from the way they are now into another state of being, right? Or to realise something deep about their existence, right? If you meditate for any other reason let me know.

This would imply that the person is not happy with they way they are otherwise they would have no desire to change.

I'm coming off as such a douche here.....I'm nice really. I just want to leave no stone unturned..Question everything you know..even spirituality

The meditation isn't really something you do, it's more like being with what already is. In most cases people continually distract themselves from emotional contents, but the meditation is like stopping, and if emotion arises, thats the experience as it is, but rather than being overwhelmed by it, the quiet remains and the emotions come and go.

The immediate reason and the main reason is that meditation is healthy and has benefits in daily life, and as a secondary reason, there are compounded benefits over the long term too.

The consideration is that change is constant and inevitable, and meditation means there is no one trying to make a change or put up a resistance to change.

The meditation has no bearing on states of mind, and remains present while the mind and body is changing.
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  #25  
Old 15-01-2015, 09:11 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
We can go back and forth if you like about realisation. I think that if meditation is about nothingness then it is impossible to realise nothing since the mechanism used to realise is ego. The only way out therefore is to stop it completely otherwise its not nothingness, its spirituality instead.

Sorry if I insulted you, maybe you understand something way beyond what I know....or it's the other way around, haha! I can't tell.

I guess our realities are very different. It's probably no big deal.

Thanks for standing up to me daz

Meditation is the means for many experiences to be had . The nothingness aspect of meditation is that meditation leads self to no self . The path is there in meditation, the path that leads one beyond self .

There is no-one there realizing nothingness there is only what you are (being what you are) as one is now, but the self in mind relates to self whereas what you are beyond does not . Meditation is also the means to stir up a wasps nest and create an enormous amount of trauma for self to work through, it's not all about sitting in silence, for one cannot be at a point of going beyond unless what lies beneath the surface has risen and been dealt with .

How does one deal with what lies hidden beneath the surface unless one knows what lies deep . Finding self is how one knows . Pointing to a figure of a man and suggest that I am here can be no more than pointing to one's shadow .

If you want to see your reflection then you go look in the mirror, if you want to see your self beyond your reflection then you go look within .

Watching T.V. reading books, playing with the kids, shopping for shoes, cooking the dinner, shouting/laughing with your partner doesn't take you beyond . Trying to escape self doesn't take you beyond .

Meditation is the means to go beyond, if done/practised in a certain way then it is a certainty that one will go beyond .


x daz x
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  #26  
Old 15-01-2015, 11:30 AM
Argento
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Yes Gem, I understand how people do it. Having spent many many hours in meditation myself, you just sit there and don't do anything (and don't even try to sit there and not do anything either, and don't do that either ad infinitum.)
Why would you want to begin in the first place though? Desire for change of course. If you meditated for any other reason than bringing about a change in yourself, I would like to know it.
When you become truly accepting of the world, meditation is no longer necessary since there is no desire to change anything in you.

If you are finally living fully in the here and now, there is no need to sit in silence to bring yourself into the moment because your nature is to be there anyway.


Godlike,
What exactly is beyond? This is very vague. I'm not good with vague language, it's the same language used in hypnosis to induce trance. We're talking about having no trances at all, and I'm suggesting that any idea of meditation in your head is trance and blinding to what is happening now. This means it can't be done, because you will always be trying not to try or trying to not try to not try, and will have little periods of this quietness between the thoughts and they will feel lovely and you will believe that you are awakening to a glorious reality that others can't see. I sure thought that when kundalini was buzzing and blasting and burning. One day my shakti blasted through my body like a tornado and out the top of my head, turned golden and I expanded across the sky and the planet. I was quite pleasant.





Guys, I get what you're all saying.

My point is that some day, you should have no more need for meditation. If you live in the here and now there is no need to bring yourself to the here and now (or more accurately: get yourself out of the way so that you become it)

Meditating for relaxation and health is highly recommended and has been shown consistently to provide benefits for physical and emotional health.

Meditation for presence will stop when you are already present. If here and now is where I naturally am, then I don't need it.
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  #27  
Old 15-01-2015, 11:50 AM
Argento
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Vince,

You copied in the sense that you saw someone meditate and you did the same thing. Copying is not always a bad thing.

I am indeed calling, "knowledge" a copy. My bad to not differentiate between knowledge and instinct. A baby cries for food, but doesn't have an inner dialogue in English the same way adults do. The inner dialogue of ego or everything you know of as, "me" is in English words you copied from someone else. Therefore your personality was given to you and you copied....I did it too.
So yes, a hammer falling on your toe will hurt regardless of what you learn. Other activities such as snowboarding, going to the cinema and meditation are all learned and copied except for the one creative soul who came up with the idea. They are not instinctive activities, otherwise they would be universal.
Being in the present moment is instinctive to all life.
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  #28  
Old 15-01-2015, 11:52 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
Yes Gem, I understand how people do it. Having spent many many hours in meditation myself, you just sit there and don't do anything (and don't even try to sit there and not do anything either, and don't do that either ad infinitum.)
Why would you want to begin in the first place though? Desire for change of course. If you meditated for any other reason than bringing about a change in yourself, I would like to know it.
When you become truly accepting of the world, meditation is no longer necessary since there is no desire to change anything in you.

I just said change is constant and inevitable, there's no choice about that.

Quote:
If you are finally living fully in the here and now, there is no need to sit in silence to bring yourself into the moment because your nature is to be there anyway.

Guys, I get what you're all saying.

My point is that some day, you should have no more need for meditation. If you live in the here and now there is no need to bring yourself to the here and now (or more accurately: get yourself out of the way so that you become it)

Meditating for relaxation and health is highly recommended and has been shown consistently to provide benefits for physical and emotional health.

That's the idea, it's healthy for today and beneficial over the long term.

Quote:
Meditation for presence will stop when you are already present. If here and now is where I naturally am, then I don't need it.

Yep, of course you're here, there's nothing to do about that.
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  #29  
Old 15-01-2015, 12:36 PM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
What exactly is beyond?



Beyond is beyond self recognition and has nothing to do with trance / hypnosis .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Argento
I'm suggesting that any idea of meditation in your head is trance and blinding to what is happening now. This means it can't be done, because you will always be trying not to try or trying to not try to not try, and will have little periods of this quietness between the thoughts and they will feel lovely and you will believe that you are awakening to a glorious reality that others can't see. I sure thought that when kundalini was buzzing and blasting and burning. One day my shakti blasted through my body like a tornado and out the top of my head, turned golden and I expanded across the sky and the planet. I was quite pleasant.



One can only perceive as they do and your understandings are based on that very same perception of self in relation to your experience of meditation .

Meditation therefore is how it is for you and meditation is therefore how it is for me / everyone . So there is room for meditation to be how it is for you and me and everyone at the same time . If one carried out the same practice from a similar point within self then the outcome / result would be the same for all . If everyone was able and had the right equipment then all would be able to climb the same mountain eventually .

There are some that do yoga for instance as a way of keeping fit and becoming more supple and have benefitted as such, my mum on the other hand practised yoga for 40 years and self realized . Yoga is self union as is meditation . Yoga is meditation and meditation is yoga . Meditation is experienced via many ways even cleaning the oven can be for some meditation .

There is a point when one does not try to do yoga nor meditate and everything related to the process happens / unfolds as it should automatically . For some it may take 10,20,30,40 years of practicing before any such states are achieved .

It doesn't matter how long any takes, it does however seems to matter that the process is carried out in a particular way .

The way that meditation brings about certain results is if one allows the process of self in relation to meditation unfold as it should not how one thinks it should .

x daz x
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  #30  
Old 15-01-2015, 12:43 PM
Argento
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I understand daz,

but what exactly is this thing that is beyond recognition?
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