Brahman=Logos?

Originally Posted by ajay00

Many of the rishis or sages were from the farming and lower economic groups. Maharshi Satyakama Jabala mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad is a famous example of a Rishi of unknown lineage who was accepted as a student in childhood by his Guru on account of his honesty and character.

So, in essence, what you have said, is, that anyone, even someone from the lower economic groups can achieve moksha, which is the Hindu equivalent of Nirvana, but you have failed to supply the evidence to support your statement that 'EVERYONE' attains Nirvana.

May peace be yours ajay.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by The Anointed

Kalki or Kalkin, who is yet to appear at the close of the fourth kalki age, when the world has become wholly depraved, for the final destruction of the wicked, for the re-establishment of righteousness upon the earth, and the renovation of all creation with a return to a new age of purity (satya-yuga).

How do you believe that kalkin is going to destroy the wicked S W?

My primary spiritual mentor for over 30 years was a Mahamandeleshwara in the Niranjani order of Shankara. I also accompanied my mentor to the Khumba Mela in Haridwar, India, in 1998 where we met some of the fabled sages from the Himalayas. It was very rare to even hear some one mention Kalki.

In the entire Vedas, there is no mention of Kalki whatsoever, as noted in the relatively good Wikipedia article whose link is provided below. (Check out the section labeled "Development".) Kalki does not appear in the Maha-Puranas either, as also noted in the Wikipedia article. There is only one reference to Kalki in the Mahabharata.

The Kalki Purana focusing on Kalki is generally considered to be a relatively recent Purana dating somewhere between 1500 to the 18th century. Some believe that the "judgment" scenarios are based on other religions known at that time. (According to John Mitchiner, the Kalki concept was likely borrowed "in some measure from similar Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian and other religions".) This is not surprising since you yourself reference Christian passages about the "Son of Man" coming to judge the wicked and this is very consistent with the theme of the Kalki judgment.

I'm not sure how much credence one can give to the story of Kalki as it does not correspond to my understanding of the Reality which is based both on direct experiences and the Advaita (non-duality) teachings of Shankara as well as other wisdom traditions.

Regarding your other question about what happens to the wicked, that would be an excellent subject for an entire thread in which I would love to participate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki

P.S. You sound like a very sincere, intelligent spiritual person so I welcome any further comments that you would like to share on Kalki.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by ajay00

it is just a feudal system that is manmade that came later on and has no sanction in the vedas.

The Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj are Hindu reformatory sects that is based on the Vedas alone and consider the caste system as unvedic.

Hi Ajay ,
The example quote of Satyakam Jabal and reference quote of paramhamsa yogananda is sufficient to prove that right to spirituality is for everyone in Hinduism . Other examples like Shabri , Rohidas also prove this point.
Krishna and Ram who are most revered deities (8th n 9th incarnation of Vishnu) are Kshatriyas and NOT Brahmin.

Now coming to caste system, we need to bear that caste system (which is discriminatory and unjust and was in vogue last few centuries ) is not the original caste system . U can refer Sloka 13 (Chapter 4) of Bhagavad Geeta for this .The original Caste system through which India reached the heights of civilization and became attraction of others to assault was specialization based , co-operation driven , service oriented occupational classification of people helping them enhance their specialization resulting in overall well being of the society . With conversion of Ashoka to Buddhism, several defeats to various rulers, subsequent weakening political/economic and educational situation distorted the caste system to one which was in vogue a 7-8 decades back (now discriminatory practices are almost non-existent) .

If u see these 4 occupational classification/specialization , it is timeless and omni-present . The societies / nations which have excelled in ensuring co-operation while promoting specialization have reached heights and ones which have failed or are failing are seeing results in their poor performance. So this is eternal wisdom followed by great cultures in one way or other .

So the original caste system was great with great specialization and co-operation devoid of any discrimination and injustice. Unfortunate that Indians themselves did not study and imbibe the true spirit of it .

Originally Posted by Still_waters

Kalki does not appear in the Maha-Puranas either, as also noted in the Wikipedia article. There is only one reference to Kalki in the Mahabharata

.
Mahabharat dates back 5000 years and is no where near 1500 to the 18th century. So the view that it has been taken from other cultures is not based in reality.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

My primary spiritual mentor for over 30 years was a Mahamandeleshwara in the Niranjani order of Shankara. I also accompanied my mentor to the Khumba Mela in Haridwar, India, in 1998 where we met some of the fabled sages from the Himalayas. It was very rare to even hear some one mention Kalki.

I suppose we could liken your experience, to that of a devout Catholic going to Rome to meet many of the spiritual guides of that persuasion, who have rejected the most important person of their recorded belief.

IMO, your Vishnu can be likened to Enoch, the seventh from Adam and the only man recorded to have been taken to heaven and anointed as the Heir and Successor to the throne of the ‘Most High’ in the creation, where he was translated from a mortal being of corruptible matter, into a glorious being of unapproachable and blinding light. And Jesus/Kalkin, who is seventy generations from Adam, (See Luke 3: 23-38) is the 10th of the seventh born sons from Enoch/Vishnu, and it is Jesus/Kalkin, the 10th manifestation of Enoch the seventh, who is yet to come for the final destruction of the wicked and the re-establishment of righteousness upon the earth.

Just as your spiritual guides appear to have rejected kalkin, so too the spiritual guides of both the Jewish and Christian religious organisations have rejected Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to who all the spirits of the righteous were gathered in the creation of the glorious temple of God, (The glorious temple that is Jesus, the brilliant light being, who blinded Saul on the road to Damascus) Jesus, the first of many brothers and sisters, who are to be conformed to the glorious image of God’s only begotten Son, (ENOCH) which glorious temples replace the old tent of God, ‘MANKIND’, where he dwelt within the innermost sanctuary of that tent, in the holy of holies behind the veil of the flesh.

The Stone that the builders of Christian church have rejected, has turned out to be the most important Stone of all.

Although I have posted the following in a Christian thread, I believe it is now applicable to this thread also.

Revelation 3: 21; “To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne, just as I have been victorious and now sit by my Father on his throne.”

Revelation 2: 26-28; “To those who win the victory, who continue to the end to do what I want, I will give the same authority that I received from my Father: I will give them authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots.”

Zechariah 14: 1-3; The day when the LORD will sit in judgement is near. Then Jerusalem will be looted, and the loot will be divided up before your eyes. The LORD will bring all the nations together to make war on Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the people will go into exile, but the rest of them will not be taken away from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past.

The Future Deliverance of Jerusalem.
Zechariah 12: 9-10; At that time, I will destroy every nation that tries to attack Jerusalem.

“I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer. They will look at the one whom they pieced, and they will mourn for him like those who mourn for an only child.

Isaiah 63: 1-6; “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?”

“It is the LORD, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory.”

“Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?”

The LORD answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground.”

Who do you suppose that the Lord through his prophets is referring to here, other than the one who has been given authority over the nations, to rule them with an iron rod and to break them to pieces like clay pots?”

Acts 17: 31; For he (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a 'MAN' he has 'CHOSEN'. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that 'MAN' from death!”

The day that the Lord has fixed, is the great Sabbath of one thousand years, of which, the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of that coming reality. See Colossians 2; 16-17.

Jesus the 10th from Enoch, who succeeded to the throne of the Lord of Creatures, who 'WAS' the Most High in the Creation, IMO is likened to Kalkin, who appears for the final destruction of the wicked.

May our God preserve you S.W.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I welcome any further comments that you would like to share on Kalki.

I personally know very little about Kalki but from what I do know He seems to have a split personality
He brings peace with the Sword in some belief systems and peace through destroying the Sword in Buddhism.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by sky123

He brings peace with the Sword in some belief systems and peace through destroying the Sword in Buddhism.

Both are valid but in different context . There was a king Ashoka who was war monger. With brief familiarity with Buddhism and seeing the results of His wars, he abdicated kingdom and sword and adopted Buddhism . This is good and right .

But not all are sensitive like Ashoka . There are certain kings/rulers who dont change their oppressive ways and incessantly engage in nepotism and despotic behavior . For such rulers sword may only be the way to bring relief to people .

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by The Anointed

I have read somewhere that in the Hindu religion, only the Brahmins, or priests, could achieve moksha, which is the Hindu equivalent of Nirvana, but you are now saying that 'EVERYONE' attains Nirvana, are you sure that you don't want to change that statement?

As Ajay00 has pointed out quite eloquently in his subsequent post (#60), there is no such belief in Hinduism.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

I personally know very little about Kalki but from what I do know He seems to have a split personality
He brings peace with the Sword in some belief systems and peace through destroying the Sword in Buddhism.

Kalki is indeed a personality in flux ("split personality" as you put it) and most info comes from a relatively recent Purana that seems to have drawn on mythologies of other religions, including Christianity (Jesus reportedly brought a "sword" in one quote attributed to him), Buddhism, and others. There is no reference whatsoever to Kalki in the Vedas. Kalki is a product of a later time.

Judgment and eternal damnation teachings don't resonate at all with my understanding of the Reality and I have often wondered about people who consider such teachings to be "divinely inspired" or "Truth".

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 66 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

There was a king Ashoka who was war monger. With brief familiarity with Buddhism and seeing the results of His wars, he abdicated kingdom and sword and adopted Buddhism .

King Ashoka is a character whom I reference often in conversations on transformation. Your brief description is quite accurate.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Judgment and eternal damnation teachings don't resonate at all with my understanding of the Reality and I have often wondered about people who consider such teachings to be "divinely inspired" or "Truth".

If your understanding of reality is that the land of the Hindu’s has never experienced wars, and will never in the futures experience the devastating Global war to end all wars, then your reality is a fantasy.

There are many people who follow the religious beliefs of the nations that surround Israel, who would love to believe that the prophecies of the Lord through his chosen prophets were not “Divinely inspired”, but they were.

Numbers 24: 15-19; Then he uttered this prophecy: GNB.
“The message of Balaam son of Beor, “The words of the man who can see clearly, Who can hear what God is saying And receive the knowledge that comes from the Most High. With staring eyes I see in a trance A vision from Almighty God.

I look into the future, And I see the nation of Israel. A king, like a bright star, will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab And beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom And make their land his property, While Israel continues victorious. The nation of Israel will trample them down
And wipe out the last survivors.”

Judges 3: 1-2; So then, the LORD left some nations in the land to test the Israelites who had not been through the wars in Canaan. He did this only in order to teach each generation of Israelites about war, especially those who had never been in battle before.

We will skip the wars of Israel recorded in Samuel, Kings, Chronicles and Psalms, and confine ourselves to some of the many prophecies of the lord concerning the salvation of his chosen people.

Isaiah 63: 1-6; “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?”
“It is the LORD, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory.”
“Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The LORD answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground.”

Jeremiah 25: 15-29; The LORD, the God of Israel, said to me, “Here is a wine cup filled with my anger. Take it to all the nations to whom I send you, and make them drink from it. When they drink from it, they will stagger and go out of their minds because of the war I am sending against them.”
So I took the cup from the LORD's hand, gave it to all the nations to whom the LORD had sent me, and made them drink from it. Jerusalem and all the towns of Judah, together with its kings and leaders, were made to drink from it, so that they would become a desert, a terrible and shocking sight, and so that people would use their name as a curse — as they still do.

We will skip the list of all the Kings of the surrounding nations, who had to drink from the cup: 13 nations in all.

Every nation on the face of the earth had to drink from it. Last of all, the king of Babylonia will drink from it.

Then the LORD said to me, “Tell the people that I, the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, am commanding them to drink until they are drunk and vomit, until they fall down and cannot get up, because of the war that I am sending against them. And if they refuse to take the cup from your hand and drink from it, then tell them that the LORD Almighty has said that they will still have to drink from it. I will begin my work of destruction in my own city. Do they think they will go unpunished? No, they will be punished, for I am going to send war on all the people on earth. I, the LORD Almighty, have spoken.

To point out all the prophecies concerning the salvation of Israel would take too long, so, let me close with Zechariah, who speaks of the war to end all wars, the greatest tribulation that this world has ever seen, and if not for the intervention of the Lord, no flesh would survive, after that begins the seventh day of one thousand years, which is the day of the lord, the future reality of the weekly Sabbath.

The Lord will begin his work of destruction in his own city.

Zechariah 14: The Lord will gather all the nations together to make war on Jerusalem. The city will be taken, the houses Looted, and the women raped. Half the people will go into exile, but the rest of them will not be taken away from the city. Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he has fought in times Past. (This has not yet happened)

Zechariah 14: 3-4; Then the Lord will go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past. At that time, he will stand on the Mount of Olives, to the east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two, from east to west by a large valley. Half of the mountain (On the African plate) will move to the northwest, and half of it (On the Arabian plate) will move to the southeast.

Zechariah 14: 13; Then the Lord will throw those nations that surround Jerusalem, into a state of total confusion, and the weapons of destruction with which they would destroy Israel, he will cause them to turn upon their own allies and they shall suffer a terrible disease, the soft tissue such as their eyes and tongues will melt in their sockets, and their radiated flesh, cooked to the bone, will slide from their bodies while still standing. Then all the surviving Nations will send their representatives each year to Jerusalem in the land of Israel, to worship and pay tribute to the Lord who will rule the whole world with justice for a thousand years, and woe betide those who refuse to do so.

Then all the godless people of this world, and all those, who in their Synagogues, Mosques, and Cathedrals of stone, marble, or crystal, who prostate themselves on the floors or who sing and dance with their eyes and hands raised to the heavens in worship of a god they neither know or understand, will bow down and worship THE God of the Bible, the Most High in the creation, ‘The Son of Man’ who evolves from the body of mankind.

Knowing that which is to occur after the one thousand years Sabbath, when heavenly fire = Radiation, incinerates the surface of this planet earth, it is in that thousand years of peace, with the great wealth that will be paid in tribute to our King and High priest, that all our resources will be used to prepare for the ultimate destruction of all physical life forms that remain on this planet.

Those who believe that the Lord will not do as he has promised, are living in a world of fantasy.

May our God preserve you S.W.