Path of devotion, gods and demi-gods

[peteyzen]

Hi Hitesh, I agree with your points and as I said, in day to day practice it doesn't matter, but, if I may I will explain my`angle` on your points.
You are absolutely correct - progress and evolution are most certainly not one directional, we do and must fall in order to progress. But, to use the crass example of a computer game, when one level is completed and you move on , the previous level does not get repeated because what needed to be achieved, was. When we reach a human soul, the refinements are such that the falls that need to take place for us to develop, happen in this human condition, nothing can be learned of use by going back so it is not allowed.
Regarding the importance of the human species, I agree with you. I dont see it as humans and animals, I see it as the evolution of the soul, a soul going through various stages insect and animal up to human, in order to return to its oneness state. The human condition is the first time that we are able (through spiritual endeavour) to leave this place, not come back and return home -spiritually speaking. Do consider my karmic explanation aligned to consciousness, it makes more sense.
Having said that I don't really expect people to believe me, I`m pushing up against thousands of years of teaching lol. But I`ve got Miss Hepburn in my corner so its not lonely lol.

[peteyzen]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Ditto for me, peteyzen.

So happy I`m not alone here miss H - thank you.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by peteyzen

Hi Hitesh, I agree with your points and as I said, in day to day practice it doesn't matter, but, if I may I will explain my`angle` on your points.
You are absolutely correct - progress and evolution are most certainly not one directional, we do and must fall in order to progress. But, to use the crass example of a computer game, when one level is completed and you move on , the previous level does not get repeated because what needed to be achieved, was. When we reach a human soul, the refinements are such that the falls that need to take place for us to develop, happen in this human condition, nothing can be learned of use by going back so it is not allowed.
Regarding the importance of the human species, I agree with you. I dont see it as humans and animals, I see it as the evolution of the soul, a soul going through various stages insect and animal up to human, in order to return to its oneness state. The human condition is the first time that we are able (through spiritual endeavour) to leave this place, not come back and return home -spiritually speaking. Do consider my karmic explanation aligned to consciousness, it makes more sense.
Having said that I don't really expect people to believe me, I`m pushing up against thousands of years of teaching lol. But I`ve got Miss Hepburn in my corner so its not lonely lol.

I agree with your rationale and I believe your consideration and rationale is very well taken into the laws of God . Even in human life there are various layers of existence and God being our father and residing very well right inside in our heart (as the sole witness of our life) very well judges us / accommodates us and He may in right cases give re-birth in human form only with varying conditions of life. e.g. if person may have done lot of sins/heinous acts but if his repentance and subsequent penance and spirituality is very intense and genuine , they go very high even till the sainthood / exponent levels and such souls definitely reign in human re-alm.
So there are lots of variables to it which is very difficult for an external person to assess perfunctorily in such matter . However God being in-dwelling super-computer, it can assess it very well with zero mistake.

Also you too would understand and appreciate there is extremely wide compass of human nature and all can not and may not fit into the criteria you describe. Another aspect of your contention is that people learn through mistake . To a greater extent that is right and valid . But at times people consider it their right to make mistake consistently and persistently without any regret , to disregard / violate scriptures given wisdom with vengeance . This creates imbalance in the universe .God must have proper fitment for all such people .

Another aspect of re-birth is cycle time to human species .That also may be longer/shorter for people depending on our spiritual evolution.

Effectively I don't see we really disagree on anything .

[Renunciation]

Originally Posted by bhakta

Few months back I visited a Hindu psychic medium who recommended that I start worshiping lord Ganesha. I told her that I wished to worship lord Krishna because I had decided to give the path of devotion or Bhakti a try, and felt more drawn towards that deity. She replied me revealing that my astrological chart dictated that I should consider Ganesha as my preferred deity and therefore propitiate him, but at the same time there was nothing wrong in worshiping lord Krishna.

Now, most Hindu psychic mediums I have met have told me that deities like Ganesha and other petty gods exist for real, have their particular role and that they need to be pleased either in order to win their favor or lest they be displeased. But many classify these deities as demigods while deities like Shiva and Vishnu as gods. I have read Bhagwata Geeta which puts Krishna or Vishnu on the rank of "The God" whilst other demi-gods, including Shiva are considered to be demi-gods. I am sure Shaivite tradition replaces Shiva with Vishnu and so do other traditions like Shakta et al.

Now I am left with so many questions but here I will only list the ones that are bothering me the most and whose answers, I am optimist, I will be able to get from you all:

1. Do you believe that these demi-gods do exist like told by the mediums? Do they have the same andromorphic form as seen in the images?

2. So who is the real God between Shiva and Vishnu and who is just a demi god?

3. Isn't it true that Shiva and Vishnu appeared much later in Puranas and they are merely imaginary representation of some formless God/Power given by devotees. In that case isn't worshipping them assigning a particular form like other demi-gods (if case 1. is true) just a waste of time?

4. If I decide to worship all three: Ganesha, Shiva and Vishnu/Krishna, what is the best way of practice? Can I tread on the path of Bhakti venerating both Shiva and Vishnu if there exist any tradition, and worhship Ganesha for my wordly endeavors?

Thank you

1. Yes, they do actually exist.But their forms are not as we see in the world. (as per the counting in the year 1947, in hindu mythology there were total of 33 crore (330 million) devi devas. below them there are demons, ghosts, devils etc... ( bhootha, pretha, pishacha, yaksha, gandharva etc..).each one is almost with similar counting of devi devas. Above devi devas, there are rishies, sanyasies, njaanjies and bhakth (sage, monk, njani, devotee). Hinduism has such a vast numbers of deities.

2. All the forces in hinduism are against The Creator-The God. But in Sanadhana (always new) Dharma, for we humans, children of manu, aadhi manu is the only one worthy of worship. The creator of this universe is aadhi manu. All the chaos and distructions in the world is because of losing the remembrace of that manu from human mind. That Aadi Manu is called Aadi Guru.That remembrance of Aadi Guru has to be bought back to human mind. Sri Krishna and other so many Prophets and Messengers came to this world for this purpose. Instead of accepting what these Great Souls were struggling to give us, they were killed and hurt very badly. Then kept an image to worship them.This is what happening all over the world.(That history will be discussed later in detail)

3. what we have to know is, in spirituality (in evolution of a soul) there are stages/standards.Demons, ghosts and devils come in First stage/standard.There are second, third and up to 10 stages there.

1st to 3rd stages are completely devils and demons, till 6th stage there are souls evolved to devies and devas.from 6th stage, there are forces in the form of light only. A soul has stages till 'aadhi sankaalpa' where soul is merged completely.

Brahma Vishnu Shiva and these 33 crore (330 miilions) are only upto 6th stage. Sri Krishna was born in 8th stage. By stories of reincarnation of Vishnu, will Krishna be lowered to the stage of devas? Myths and legends are filled with fabricated stories and poet's imaginations.Even Bhagavath Gita is adulterated.

4.instead of clearing the fluctuations of the mind, instead of concentrating the mind to one point. we are distracting and maddening the mind and not getting even a fraction of goodness by worshipping several different deities. There is no other way to rectify this mistake other than worshipping that 'Aadhi Guru'. If we want to give space for that 'Aadhi Guru' in our mind, we have to get rid of all the other forces gathered in our mind through many births. For that we just have to pray by calling 'Oh Guru' 'Oh God', nothing else is required. 'Only GURU is worthy of worship'. Guru is God.

[Brian100]

Nobody can prove any God with Hindu books or spiritual phrases. You would have to Prove God with the Shroud of Turin.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Brian100

Nobody can prove any God with Hindu books or spiritual phrases. You would have to Prove God with the Shroud of Turin.

God has been experienced and proved many times by Hindus and with the help of Hindu scriptures . There is no denial that people can experience it different ways also.

And you can go on proving God with other ways . You are completely free.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Renunciation

1. Yes, they do actually exist.But their forms are not as we see in the world. (as per the counting in the year 1947, in hindu mythology there were total of 33 crore (330 million) devi devas. below them there are demons, ghosts, devils etc... ( bhootha, pretha, pishacha, yaksha, gandharva etc..).each one is almost with similar counting of devi devas. Above devi devas, there are rishies, sanyasies, njaanjies and bhakth (sage, monk, njani, devotee). Hinduism has such a vast numbers of deities.

The Sanskrit word 'Koti' has one meaning 'type' and another meaning number 10 million . Here the meaning of 33 koti is 33 types of demi-gods.
Also Hinduism believes God resides in one self . Hence seeing God in every living being can not be wrong.

Originally Posted by Renunciation

2. All the forces in hinduism are against The Creator-The God. But in Sanadhana (always new) Dharma, for we humans, children of manu, aadhi manu is the only one worthy of worship. The creator of this universe is aadhi manu. All the chaos and distructions in the world is because of losing the remembrace of that manu from human mind. That Aadi Manu is called Aadi Guru.That remembrance of Aadi Guru has to be bought back to human mind. Sri Krishna and other so many Prophets and Messengers came to this world for this purpose. Instead of accepting what these Great Souls were struggling to give us, they were killed and hurt very badly. Then kept an image to worship them.This is what happening all over the world.(That history will be discussed later in detail)

3. what we have to know is, in spirituality (in evolution of a soul) there are stages/standards.Demons, ghosts and devils come in First stage/standard.There are second, third and up to 10 stages there.

1st to 3rd stages are completely devils and demons, till 6th stage there are souls evolved to devies and devas.from 6th stage, there are forces in the form of light only. A soul has stages till 'aadhi sankaalpa' where soul is merged completely.

Brahma Vishnu Shiva and these 33 crore (330 miilions) are only upto 6th stage. Sri Krishna was born in 8th stage. By stories of reincarnation of Vishnu, will Krishna be lowered to the stage of devas? Myths and legends are filled with fabricated stories and poet's imaginations.Even Bhagavath Gita is adulterated.

4.instead of clearing the fluctuations of the mind, instead of concentrating the mind to one point. we are distracting and maddening the mind and not getting even a fraction of goodness by worshipping several different deities. There is no other way to rectify this mistake other than worshipping that 'Aadhi Guru'. If we want to give space for that 'Aadhi Guru' in our mind, we have to get rid of all the other forces gathered in our mind through many births. For that we just have to pray by calling 'Oh Guru' 'Oh God', nothing else is required. 'Only GURU is worthy of worship'. Guru is God.

Hinduism clearly believes in creator God . Manu was very ancient rishi who wrote manusmriti . There exists lot of interpretations of his writing all of which are not authentic . Hypotheitcal Categorization of Gods is purely mythical and without any authentic support of higher scripture.

Now Guru or an awakened soul is highly respected in any tradition including Hinduism . But along with that there are extremely stiff / strict criteria to make oneself Guru . One by one's own declaration or with some paid advertisements just can not be considered Guru by real Hindu traditions. Only when disciple on his/her own of his/her own volition without involvement of any deception/publicity , sees oneself as friend philosopher as guide and there are very high number of such disciple that one can categorise oneself as Gurus .In this age of internet promo/advertisements its extremely rare to find such Guru.

[Brian100]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

God has been experienced and proved many times by Hindus and with the help of Hindu scriptures . There is no denial that people can experience it different ways also.

And you can go on proving God with other ways . You are completely free.

You need Science to prove any Hindu Gods. What is available to look at?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Brian100

You need Science to prove any Hindu Gods. What is available to look at?

First God is God - the supreme generator operator n destroyer .It is same for everybody. To categorize him Hindu or Christian is limiting him n thereby insult of Him.

Second God's existence does not depend on acceptance by any beings. Its axiomatic. u may accept him or reject it.It simply does not matter to Him or His universe.

Third science is documented experiences of well meaning great/wise people world over. And most such documented have accepted it or have not opposed it.

Fourth Science talks of cause n effect rules n if we observe life it is amazing web of nicely knit interwoven cause effect relationship.That itself is ample proof.
This is amply clear with social sciences.

Now u can elaborate your proving our 'Christian' god(My Hinduism let's me see through reality beyond nomenclature n appreciate it very well)

[Renunciation]

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

The Sanskrit word 'Koti' has one meaning 'type' and another meaning number 10 million . Here the meaning of 33 koti is 33 types of demi-gods.
Also Hinduism believes God resides in one self . Hence seeing God in every living being can not be wrong.

Hinduism clearly believes in creator God . Manu was very ancient rishi who wrote manusmriti . There exists lot of interpretations of his writing all of which are not authentic . Hypotheitcal Categorization of Gods is purely mythical and without any authentic support of higher scripture.

When the fact and true history is revealed by The Almighty through vision (dharshana), why depend on twisted and corrupted histories in books?

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Now Guru or an awakened soul is highly respected in any tradition including Hinduism . But along with that there are extremely stiff / strict criteria to make oneself Guru . One by one's own declaration or with some paid advertisements just can not be considered Guru by real Hindu traditions. Only when disciple on his/her own of his/her own volition without involvement of any deception/publicity , sees oneself as friend philosopher as guide and there are very high number of such disciple that one can categorise oneself as Gurus .In this age of internet promo/advertisements its extremely rare to find such Guru.

True Guru Shishya (disciple) relationship was shown in bagavth gita in Sri Krishna and Arjuna conversation. There arjuna was revealed that it was Lord himself in front of him. Is there any other experience like this in the history? If arjuna got it, why don't we get it? It's needed to be attained. Destination and the way are same for it.That is 'GURU'.

Each one of us has to say what and who GURU is from the experience.

When we, Manu's (Manu is The Supreme Light form, not a human, It's The God. Manu smrithi is not a book, It's Manu's remembrance. It has to be cleared and visible in our mind) disciples, pray by calling GURU, we can see that Manu in the supreme light.Seeing that Manu is Manu smrithi. That Manu's remembrance is lost for a long time. We have to redeem/restore that remembrance.It is redeemed/restored here.

We are not sharing this fact for money, fame or any other material gain. This is the wisdom, to know about our soul since the beginning of it's creation.With the faith in Manu (GURU), by showing all our births, all the deities we worshipped in these births will appear in front of us and purify our soul by merging them to The GURU. Without this purification we can't escape from the cycle of birth and death. our effort should be to know this.