Why would God care so about murder if He knows there is no death?

[Native spirit]

Please be aware Miss Hepburn asked a question only.please keep this post polite or it will be closed

[Lynn]

Hello Members

It seems we have lost track of the original thread topic. I second what Native spirit has said. We all have our own views but too we have to be open to growth in understanding the views of others as well as our own.

The thread has been cleaned up a bit. Let get back on track here with polite and respectful discussions.

Lynn
SF Admin

Here is the original topic to get you started on the right foot.

Why would God care so about murder if He knows there is no death?


Just wondered your thoughts.

If this is a dream, and Illusion - there is no death ever - why would God
care if someone killed another?

Wouldn't He know that they come back again and again?

I'm coming to Gen Beliefs more and more.
__________________
Miss Hepburn

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Lorelyen

This "illusion" thing is cropping up again and again. So what, if it is what you've termed an illusion?

It's pretty persistent.

Earlier when I first formally set out to improve my spiritual development I asked the person who introduced me to Hermeticism "What IS reality then?" His reply was "Does it matter? You're here, it's around you. You have to deal with it."

So I'd ask - how d'you know it's an illusion? Do you know what's behind it and how it affects you as an illusion?.........Aside from the evident fact that the solidity of everything and all its properties is a product of our perception and the way we've dealt with it suggests we haven't made too bad a job. So, yes, illusory in that our senses don't allow us access to the microcosmic structure of everything we experience.

At least, since we can't communicate our individual experiences, it does support the case for solipsism.

.oOo.

You raise a very good point about the "illusionary" nature of creation.

Shakaracharya reportedly stated the following syllogism which outwardly appears to be paradoxical.

Brahman is REAL.
The Universe is UNREAL.
BUT Brahman is the Universe.

Using normal syllogistic interpretations, the conclusion in the third line would appear to be "Real = Unreal".

The general interpretation is that, when we view the external as being separate from the underlying reality, then the "Universe is Unreal". However, when one recognizes the external as a manifestation of the underlying reality, then it's ALL REAL and no longer an "illusion".

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

So what would be the comparison had would you say in regards to life that is not dream based?

The thing here as I see it has to relate to the dream as a dream, so it doesn't matter how many nobel prizes quantum physicists have because they are part of the dream, there is nothing real about any of it unless it is a real dream and there is nothing illusory about it ..

We then have to understand the nature of the dream, the dream characters and the truthfulness that can come from a dream characters lips compared to someone-thing that is beyond the dream ..

This is why using 'mind' as a means to describe reality in this way doesn't work unless there is a beyond mind that one can relate too also..

The thing is in this regard is that beyond mind is beyond self and beyond the so called dream .. so how is it that one can say what they say when there is only the dream in effect .

It doesn't work .

Are dream / illusory yogi masters able to tell the truth from an unreal / illusory position that is mindful?

This is where contradictions can play a part here because we have a scenario where dream illusory characters declare themselves awake from the dream or somehow outside of the dream but these notions are not outside or beyond the very thing that they are negating .. it's referred to as a mind-trap ..


x dazzle x

You raise a very valid point when you wrote "This is why using 'mind' as a means to describe reality in this way doesn't work unless there is a beyond mind that one can relate too also.. " You just hit the nail right on the head.

When one stills the mind, one attunes to that which is "beyond mind" and one can indeed relate to that quite well. It is quite analagous to what happens in a lucid dream (or conscious sleep, as I practice) whereby one can shift attention at will from the dream-object to the dreamer which lies beyond the "minds" of the dream-objects.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You raise a very valid point when you wrote "This is why using 'mind' as a means to describe reality in this way doesn't work unless there is a beyond mind that one can relate too also.. " You just hit the nail right on the head.

When one stills the mind, one attunes to that which is "beyond mind" and one can indeed relate to that quite well. It is quite analagous to what happens in a lucid dream (or conscious sleep, as I practice) whereby one can shift attention at will from the dream-object to the dreamer which lies beyond the "minds" of the dream-objects.

Hey :)

I have a sneaky spider sense feeling that we may have a different understanding to what mind is and constitutes and that's totally fine because in my eyes beyond mind is beyond self, so when you speak about relating to beyond mind quite well it wouldn't be possible because the mind is the environment for self relations ..

So as I see it there is only a comparison for this world being a dream in relation to the night time dream be it a normal dream or a lucid dream matters not however a lucid dream in many eyes is regarded as not being a dream but a real experience .. It depends on the nature of the dream doesn't it ..

But back to your understanding of beyond mind where there is relations to that 'beyond-ness' so how can you relate that beyond-ness to being not a dream?

All we have here is awareness of the world and awareness of beyond the world .

For anyone to say for examples sake that the beyond-ness is perhaps real and the world experience is illusory or dreamy then how can there be the thought of realness had beyond the mind when beyond the mind is beyond the thought of what is real and what is dreamy?

This is why I speak of the mind trap ..


x dazzle x

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

I have a sneaky spider sense feeling that we may have a different understanding to what mind is and constitutes and that's totally fine because in my eyes beyond mind is beyond self, so when you speak about relating to beyond mind quite well it wouldn't be possible because the mind is the environment for self relations ..

So as I see it there is only a comparison for this world being a dream in relation to the night time dream be it a normal dream or a lucid dream matters not however a lucid dream in many eyes is regarded as not being a dream but a real experience .. It depends on the nature of the dream doesn't it ..

But back to your understanding of beyond mind where there is relations to that 'beyond-ness' so how can you relate that beyond-ness to being not a dream?

All we have here is awareness of the world and awareness of beyond the world .

For anyone to say for examples sake that the beyond-ness is perhaps real and the world experience is illusory or dreamy then how can there be the thought of realness had beyond the mind when beyond the mind is beyond the thought of what is real and what is dreamy?

This is why I speak of the mind trap ..


x dazzle x

Your "sneaky spider sense" has raised an interesting point regarding exactly what is the definition of "mind". Ramana Maharshi defines mind , as I do, as a "bundle of thoughts". That is convenient since it allows one to accommodate various levels of what most consider "mind" to be. (The Hermetic Principle of "As above, so below" comes into play here.)

When one can still the little egotistical "mind" of personal thoughts, one's consciousness expands and one gets an "eagle's view" of the world (or at least glimpses of it) in what is sometimes called the "cosmic mind". Hence, in talking about "going beyond the mind", I should probably be more precise when conversing with beings like you who seem to have a deeper understanding of the Reality.

The Tibetan yogi Milarepa observed that. whatever he could do in the traditional dream state to which most people can relate, he could also do at the next level in what most people call the "waking state" world. However, as I believe that you are implying, going beyond that aspect of the expanded "cosmic mind" presents inherent issues in relating to others .... but, in that case, the relationship is perceived in a completely different light.

As one starts to go there, words become inadequate and concepts like "real/unreal" and "dream/non-dream" no longer seem to apply.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Just wondered your thoughts.
If this is a dream, and Illusion - there is no death ever - why would God
care if someone killed another?
Wouldn't He know that they come back again and again?

I'm coming to Gen Beliefs more and more.

You claim that many people don’t recognize this, you are proud that saw this at 8 yo

I had to reflect on what it was that felt odd about this scenario, and I would posit the following:

1. The Saints who know that which is beyond sight (lifting the veil, as Jyotir might say) or sound or smell may and can intuit many things, many interesting tidbits so to speak. However with that, the Saints are also blessed in many cases I find with wisdom, grace, intelligence.

Does one go and say to a child that the toy is a useless feature that will one day be outgrown? No. Why? Because we meet each other, I guess, as much as possible where they are. We share knowledge that is beneficial for the other. (I don’t do this but there are many on this forum who do, ok maybe a few)

2. Illusion? Since God is present, and if God is what we may believe, then God has a heart and that heart cares. That heart doesn’t say “I don’t care, let people hurt each other”

That is no Saint, that is no God, there is nothing sacred or real in that illusion that God doesn’t care.

3. The person who says this is all illusion, in my mind, doesn’t live the truth of the Saints. OR perhaps those who know what consciousness is honor the hidden Gods that remain

YMMV

BTW I’d just listen to the teachers, there is not one, no matter how genuine or sacred that has posited that harming another is ok.



Jl

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by janielee

You claim that many people don’t recognize this, you are proud that saw this at 8 yo

I had to reflect on what it was that felt odd about this scenario, and I would posit the following:

1. The Saints who know that which is beyond sight (lifting the veil, as Jyotir might say) or sound or smell may and can intuit many things, many interesting tidbits so to speak. However with that, the Saints are also blessed in many cases I find with wisdom, grace, intelligence.

Does one go and say to a child that the toy is a useless feature that will one day be outgrown? No. Why? Because we meet each other, I guess, as much as possible where they are. We share knowledge that is beneficial for the other. (I don’t do this but there are many on this forum who do, ok maybe a few)

2. Illusion? Since God is present, and if God is what we may believe, then God has a heart and that heart cares. That heart doesn’t say “I don’t care, let people hurt each other”

That is no Saint, that is no God, there is nothing sacred or real in that illusion that God doesn’t care.

3. The person who says this is all illusion, in my mind, doesn’t live the truth of the Saints. OR perhaps those who know what consciousness is honor the hidden Gods that remain

YMMV

BTW I’d just listen to the teachers, there is not one, no matter how genuine or sacred that has posited that harming another is ok.

Jl

I really appreciate your good intentions. I also wonder, a little, do you leave room, do you tolerate the idea that maybe those you don't understand have as good intentions as you have? They just believe differently.

Originally Posted by inavalan

I really appreciate your good intentions. I also wonder, a little, do you leave room, do you tolerate the idea that maybe those you don't understand have as good intentions as you have? They just believe differently.

Yes of course, for example, yourself

Jl

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Your "sneaky spider sense" has raised an interesting point regarding exactly what is the definition of "mind". Ramana Maharshi defines mind , as I do, as a "bundle of thoughts". That is convenient since it allows one to accommodate various levels of what most consider "mind" to be. (The Hermetic Principle of "As above, so below" comes into play here.)

When one can still the little egotistical "mind" of personal thoughts, one's consciousness expands and one gets an "eagle's view" of the world (or at least glimpses of it) in what is sometimes called the "cosmic mind". Hence, in talking about "going beyond the mind", I should probably be more precise when conversing with beings like you who seem to have a deeper understanding of the Reality.

The Tibetan yogi Milarepa observed that. whatever he could do in the traditional dream state to which most people can relate, he could also do at the next level in what most people call the "waking state" world. However, as I believe that you are implying, going beyond that aspect of the expanded "cosmic mind" presents inherent issues in relating to others .... but, in that case, the relationship is perceived in a completely different light.

As one starts to go there, words become inadequate and concepts like "real/unreal" and "dream/non-dream" no longer seem to apply.

Hey :)

Yes mind encompasses our bundles of thoughts and the thought of I AM is foundational isn't it . This is why I can say this world is dreamy and illusory or real and true.

We can compare the waking state with the dream state with the spirit world with a universal mind experience with beyond that and that and that ..

You agree at a point there are no concepts of real or dreamy or illusory for there is only what we are that is beyond those mindful aspects ..

This however is why comparisons are always needed when we speak about a specific vibration or dimension because otherwise it literally becomes one dimensional and doesn't cater for the bigger picture ..

This is what I see happening with certain teachers and peeps who simply proclaim this world to be a dream without any comparison had that holds weight and the mind is used in ways and means to point to beyond it lol ..

If beyond mind is beyond the thought of I AM then even this comparison doesn't hold weight either because it's not a foundation lived or experienced, it is simply what you are without a thought of I AM .

This is why giving a true comparison to the dream world never comes ..


x daz x