Thwarting Unwanted Advances with Love and Kindness

[Jack of Spades]

Imzadi

I've now read through the entire thread. I think there is something I'd like to point out. First let's be clear, I'm not a traditionalist, but I'm using it as an example:

When you address the violent extremists in people who advocate for traditional gender roles, you see the mainstream traditionalists being indirectly responsible for the actions of the extremes:

Originally Posted by Imzadi

...I find it incredibly unfortunate that you always vilify their group because it is in these type of vilification that cost people's lives...

Logically, it makes sense; without traditionalism, there wouldn't be violent traditionalism. Also, "blood in your hands" is an effective guilting trick to make a point.

But then again, when it comes to the extremes of feminism, you don't seem to draw the same connection of indirect responsibility between the extremes and the moderates:

Originally Posted by Imzadi

The true meaning of feminism isn't about women overthrowing men in a bid for gender superiority.

Shouldn't mainstream feminists also be held responsible for the doings and sayings of the extremes?

I am not just trying to play "gotcha" here, I actually have a point to make:

It's easy to just play the blamegame but in reality, every ideology, including feminism and gender traditionalism, has some vulnerabilities, that expose the said ideology to extreme forms. Some ideologies have more vulnerabilities than others, but all of them have some. In my opinion, instead of dismissing the extremists of ones own ideology as "no true believers" it is good to sometimes ponder and try to recognize such vulnerabilities and address them.

In the case of feminism, I believe that the ideological vulnerability that fuels extremism is the history of feminism. Feminism has historically lived in an environment where advocating for women's point of view against men's point of view has equaled fighting for equality. This has been a good fight and in some areas this setting remains true. But there comes a point, and in many cases the point has already came, in which advocating for women against men is no longer fighting for equality, but rather just a fight against men's equality.

Or to put it another way; the history of feminism has a baggage, which creates a bias to always see men as the privileged oppressors who are only talking about their problems to keep oppressing women, even when that is not objectively speaking the case.

Instead of giving me the standard feminist "Your problems are too tiny for anyone to care about, you privileged male" - reaction (in theory feminists are for men's rights, but in practice, men's concerns always have to take the second seat), I would appreciate if feminists sometimes recognized this problem in their own movement and addressed it.

[Imzadi]

Jack,

Strange as it may seem, I am actually a traditionalist as well as a feminist. Yes, you can certainly be both those things! A traditionalist is simply someone who believes in the power, importance, and value of traditions. A feminist, as I have described repeatedly is someone who simply believe in the obvious benefits of gender equality and social equity. For me, there is no conflict. These two things can effectively coexist so I am certainly not blaming anyone, either traditionalists or feminists, for the extremism that exists. I don't believe placing blame on anything is an effective way to address any problems at all from a psychological and Spiritual perspective. It's just not productive.

Without launching into a dissertation, I will simply say that extremism exists because people feel disenfranchised, marginalized, unappreciated, mistreated, and outraged by actual or perceived injustice. You see this with every group, so I don't need to insult your intelligence by further elaborating and giving examples of how each group feels this way and there are indeed so many different groups aside from what we have discussed.

I truly do not mean to hit a nerve when I was giving the example that it is important to understand the disparity of power between people. That's essentially all I mean; the disparity should be recognize. I see now that the word "priviledge" is certainly misleading in the context that I was using because it is actually a liberal UC Berkeley social studies type of jargon that can cause more negative feelings rather than positive understanding. This is problematic, so I'll rephrase myself in a way that might be more palatable:

I never intended to imply that the hetero-sexual white male problems do not exist or do not matter. They matter. In fact, I dare say they matter the most of all because they have been detrimentally neglected in feminist conversation as an ally. Indeed I recognize the difficulties and awkwardness for a lot of them to traverse and navigate through this wacky terrain of empowerment activism that often times unfortunately and seemingly demonizes and alienates them. It is so hard to be a man in this day an age, am I right? And I am saying this with sincerity and without sarcasm. Yes, I know. It really sucks sometimes, but all that I am simply pointing out is that the disparity of power exists. The recognition of it has significant implications in so many ways. That's all.

With that being said, the point that I have been reiterating throughout this thread repeatedly is simply that what is important in this wonderfully illuminating conversation, is equanimity. It is so easy to be reactionary and lose our balance, calm, and open mind. Every Soul currently incarnated into this challenging and out of balance world have the responsibility and the opportunity to do our very best. Of course feminism as a movement has baggage, just as any other movement or situation. There's no glorification or demonization here with me, no superiority and no inferiority, no blame and no excuses, no perpetrators and no victims. What I am advocating for is simply for the recognition that we respect the value and sanctity of one another because at the very Core, we are all just the same; Divine Source at play. :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To everyone,

I am grateful for your SOUL's service here on Earth and I very much appreciate you contributions and insights to this conversation. God bless you and much LOVE to YOU. Please take good care. <3

[Jack of Spades]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Strange as it may seem, I am actually a traditionalist as well as a feminist.

I believe I meant a bit different thing with the word "traditionalist" than you did, but that's just semantics.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Without launching into a dissertation, I will simply say that extremism exists because people feel disenfranchised, marginalized, unappreciated, mistreated, and outraged by actual or perceived injustice.

That is one root cause, but there are others as well. I believe that the greatest root cause for all extremism is intentional promotion of extremism. Sometimes such promotion is done for very unholy reasons, such as money, power, celebrity status, or simple selfish vanity (= my experience is the only experience that defines reality). Sometimes promotion of extremism is simply a derailed quest that was originally a quest for justice.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

It is so hard to be a man in this day an age, am I right? And I am saying this with sincerity and without sarcasm. Yes, I know. It really sucks sometimes, but all that I am simply pointing out is that the disparity of power exists. The recognition of it has significant implications. That's all.

For me personally, being a man is not particularly difficult. Not to the point where I would feel specifically disadvantaged. I don't. Sure, I have a set of male-specific problems that compare to the similar sets of Whatever-specific problems of other groups and there are areas where some other people have it easier than I do. But my life is not a tragedy, all I'm asking is to have my fair share at having my concerns heard, without them being dismissed. Currently, I am not getting that chance from mainstream feminists and that is why I keep calling them out for it.

What worries me is not as much how things are now, but rather the direction where we are headed. "We" being the Western world generally.

As for the power disparity. I can see what you mean, especially when it comes to physical forms of power. But there are areas where the power disparity is already turning the other way around and such areas should be recognized and called out. To give a light example, I recommend watching comedian Seth Meyers episodes called "Jokes Seth can't tell". While it's light-harted comedy, it touches a real issue; white males are expected to have an unrealistic level of sensitivity and cautiousness in their way of speaking and are at a constant risk of being permanently labeled if they step outside those extremely high expectations.

It's one thing to ask me to recognize the power disparity, it's another thing to ask me to compensate for it. I am fine for recognizing what is true, but I consider compensations and overcompensations to be a toxic path to take. I am willing to treat people equally (or at least try it and hold that as an ideal), because in my opinion, in the long run, equal treatment becomes the norm the best when that is where we aim. Compensations - even well-meaning ones - might backfire and end up being patronizing.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Indeed I recognize the difficulties and awkwardness for a lot of them to traverse and navigate through this wacky terrain of empowerment activism that often times unfortunately and seemingly demonize and alienate them.

In my case personally, please don't consider it a tragedy that I was alienated from feminism. I now see that alienation as a productive challenge that was thrown at me by life to improve my perspective on gender - related values.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

What I am advocating for is simply for the recognition that we respect the value and sanctity of one another because at the very Core, we are all just the same. :)

I applaud your willingness to engage with people who are out to challenge you.

[Jack of Spades]

*double post*

[Imzadi]

Jack,

I don't feel particularly challenged by your words at all because I love this important and meaningful conversation, but I do appreciate the applause! A discussion is when different parties come together to illuminate Truth. I don't see any conflict between what we are discussing at all. Indeed, as we are here because this is a Spiritual forum, the most important perspective is the Spiritual perspective which is all encompassing. I certainly agree with much of what you said now and in previous posts.

You also bring up something very crucial that I have also witnessed. It's sort of like the pendulum affect that you illustrated with Seth's jokes. The wave of thoughts, ideas, perspectives, animosities, discord swings wildly and when it reaches the apex of one side, it inevitably swings to the other. Such is the nature of unconsciousness. Perhaps as the Consciousness of humanity continues to evolve, there will be more Oneness and less duality, more stillness and less chaos, more wisdom and less struggle, more Love and less ego.

[Imzadi]

[Oops! Double post... I'll throw in a picture to go with it just for fun =P]



The blooming of human Consciousness :)

[Jack of Spades]

Originally Posted by Imzadi

You also bring up something very crucial that I have also witnessed. It's sort of like the pendulum affect that you illustrated with Seth's jokes. The wave of thoughts, ideas, perspectives, animosities, discord swings wildly and when it reaches the apex of one side, it inevitably swings to the other.

"Momentum" is probably the word you are looking for? If you intend to run 10 steps, the momentum will easily take you to 15 unless if you consciously stop yourself. It's the same in ideology, continuing with the momentum (even a once noble momentum) will easily send people to a place where they become the new generation of bad guys.

Originally Posted by Imzadi

Such is the nature of unconsciousness. Perhaps as the Consciousness of humanity continues to evolve, there will be more Oneness and less duality, more stillness and less chaos, more wisdom and less struggle, more Love and less ego.

I find being aware of what drives us the key to balance. Balance comes from knowing what drives us and consciously avoiding being driven by only one set of emotions or one set of symbols.

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by Jack of Spades

I find being aware of what drives us the key to balance. Balance comes from knowing what drives us and consciously avoiding being driven by only one set of emotions or one set of symbols.

Absolutely, I would also say that while it is important to make aware of the emotions and symbols that drives the psyche, that there is also another sort of intelligence within the Soul that is not limited by or dependent upon symbols and ideas. In order to have balance, one must simultaneously make conscious the psyche as well as cultivate the Soul. :)

[angelic star]

Maybe God is testing my patience and compassion, but I'm starting to think my sister might be right that perhaps cutting them off completely would be the right call. I mean it's probably just harmless infatuation and I do want to consider them my friends, but this is getting ridiculous.

' Compassion' or 'understanding' to someone who has some sort of a romantic interest and hopes for one is not a great idea esp if its making you uncomfortable, because their base intentions are not 'platonic' and thinking you can fix and change that with ' compassion' is not very wise in the first place. In fact compassion to the point of compromising on your ideals or your emotional well is never a great option. It's okay not to be nice, especially to people who show more interest than you are comfortable with. Most women make this mistake, thinking they can fix someone , since their quality is to nurture, but what they need to realize is that they cannot nurse someone and make them see differently. You can never really 'fix' a grown person and teach them how to see you, they have a mind of their own. One needs to draw lines with others, especially the opposite sex.
Compassion in some cases, is saying ' yes' to everything the other person wants, and nothing you want. People are stuck in their heads most of the time, and when you are showing mercy, it is mistaken for weakness or some sort of allowance on your part. If you are not too comfortable with someone, its best to maintain distance or seek protection. Sometimes its good not to be so nice, especially if someone is testing your personal space or emotional/ mental boundaries. You decide what you want for yourself, not let the other person decide what you want for yourself or make adjustment for them, esp when it comes to your emotional safety its better to chose wisely.

[Imzadi]

Originally Posted by angelic star

' Compassion' or 'understanding' to someone who has some sort of a romantic interest and hopes for one is not a great idea esp if its making you uncomfortable, because their base intentions are not 'platonic' and thinking you can fix and change that with ' compassion' is not very wise in the first place. In fact compassion to the point of compromising on your ideals or your emotional well being at the expense of another is never a great option. Most women make this mistake, thinking they can fix someone , since their quality is to nurture, but what they need to realize is that they cannot nurse someone and make them see differently. You can never really 'fix' a grown person. You can only watch what you do and be careful of the actions you take.
Compassion in some cases, is saying ' yes' to everything the other person wants, and nothing you want. People are stuck in their heads most of the time, and when you are showing mercy, it is mistaken for weakness or some sort of allowance on your part. If you are not too comfortable with someone, its best to maintain distance or seek protection. Sometimes its good not to be so nice, especially if someone is testing your personal space or emotional/ mental boundaries. You decide what you want for yourself, not let the other person decide what you want for yourself or make adjustment for them, esp when it comes to your emotional safety its better to chose wisely.

Thank you, I am seeing this more clearly now. I am done compromising myself and allowing myself to be in unsafe spaces. I am going to start breaking these patterns for sure. I cannot serve anyone else if I cannot practice good emotional self care for myself. Thanks for the reminder.