Is suffering real ? Is love, joy real?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I am saying every single solitary thing you see with your eyes open is a Dream, from what I have been shown more than once.

I do not have an issue with the dream analogy or dream example, when used to give an example of separation, for example, the dream anaolgy or dream example, tells me that the spiritual world, plane or realm is not seperate or is not any different than the physical universe-the spiritual world, plane or realm and the physical universe are one and the same, like how the ying and the yang are one and the same. The same is true for the living and the near death experience(r). A near death experience or out of body experience is just the individual spirit, soul or energy changing back into it's original form, from the living physical body. The place this happens at, does not change, though it may seem like you are going into the afterlife or ultimate reality to your human brain. I see and understand why you think it is a dream. I do not understand why you seperate the spiritual world, plane or realm from the physical universe, when they are one and the same. Especially, when used in a non-duality and oneness context.

There is no dream, without the dreamer! You will not experience the near death experience(r), without your individual spirit, soul or energy changing back into it's original form, from the physical body.There is no physical universe, without the spiritual world, plane or realm.

The ying and yang are not just about unity, wholeness or onenes spiritually, the ying and yang is also about personal subjectivity and arbitrary-the dreamer and the dream are one and the same.

The real issue I have is seperating the spiritual world, plane or realm from the physical universe-the ying and yang!

Why is it important for you to seperate the spiritual world, plane or realm from the physical universe?

[J_A_S_G]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

There is no dream, without the dreamer!

And there is a dreamer even without a dream.

There are no waves without Water, however there's Water without waves.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by J_A_S_G

And there is a dreamer even without a dream.

There is only a dreamer, without a dream, when the dreamer is not asleep dreaming.

[J_A_S_G]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

There is only a dreamer, without a dream, when the dreamer is not asleep dreaming.

So the dreamer is real and the dream is unreal. The dream analogy posits the same applies to waking reality. What 'dreams' waking reality (and dream & deep sleep reality too)? What if God got bored? https://youtu.be/ckiNNgfMKcQ

By the way, when lucid dreaming the dream is also realized to be unreal, even when in its midst.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

There is no dream, without the dreamer!

This was such a great sentence I had to separate it from the rest. :)
You are exactly correct!
And Who is dreaming this dream ...and Who has imagined Himself as the dreamer..since there is Only One! ?

Why is it important for you to separate the spiritual world... from the physical universe?

It is not imp to me.

One thing I need to say, I am a BIG believer in ''Seeing is believing."
So I get if someone doesn't even believe in a God or angels or an Afterlife of any kind or the Illusion....Why should they if they have never experienced any of it!?
Just sayin, cuz you don't know me.:)

So to clarify, I don't think this is a dream, as you said. Ha, I might not have given it a second thought my whole LIFE!...but, oddly,
I was thrown into an Altered State of Perception my first time at 8 yrs old...quite suddenly!
Then, as an adult - again, quite suddenly - looking out an 8th floor Hotel room at the world, a city...then other times.

Now as far as this separation...I see existence, I mean, other physical planets or dimensions, non-physical planes and
their inhabitants, invisible to us (for the most part, ha), also as a Cosmic Dream of the Dreamer.

Similar to the yin and yang, perhaps, I understand this world and the Creator of this world..as similar to a glass.

The glass has an inside, that you put water in...but, if you run your finger from the inside, around the lip, to the outside and down, that is also 'the glass'....the outside is the "glass' and the inside is the ''the glass'', so diff from each other
yet, both aspects are ''the glass'' .
The inside, empty or full is the glass...yet, the outside that doesn't hold water is also ''the glass''...they are One and the SAME! No separation.


Desperation
Separation...why spelled differently? But they are!

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I think people are stuck on the dream metaphor, because people heard or read about gurus or teachers doing miracle or magical things, that in reality, may just be marketing.

For sure, the dream notion is rife in teachings to various degrees across the board.

As it appears there seems to be a variety of notions had that vary from the dream is a analogy only to an actual dream.

What I notice from experience is that a lot of so called truths are put forward as analogies and metaphors and never speak of actualities.

So what we can be left with is some kind of unknown reality that is likened to a dream. That which reflects what we are and nothing much else.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Every single thing I see with my eyes open is made of Dream stuff...poof -
like a Hologram...at it's core, Light.
No metaphor for me...that's is just the Reality of this place...this Third Dimension.

What we are that experiences a physical reality is governed by the science that allows one to do that.

The 3d reality has it's own vibratory rate that allows physicality. So it doesn't matter on one hand if the light energy or the atoms have an abundance of empty space or not. The Tree has it's own design of creation just like every being has.

In a way everything is science based. It's not dream based just because science governs the vibratory rate for light/cells to manifest in the physical.

I don't see any correlation between vibratory rates equating to dreams.

I just don't understand it especially when dreams that are experienced are had when the spirit is still conscious and aware.

What I see in your premise is a mix up of what can be seen as a sort of an illusion rather than a dream.

The illusion doesn't reflect a dream, it just that the science behind a physical object reflects something that isn't entirely physical.



x daz x

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by God-Like

So what we can be left with is some kind of unknown reality that is likened to a dream. That which reflects what we are and nothing much else.

Wouldn`t all experiences a person have, also be an unreal dream or illusion? Thus experiences would not be important? Wouldn`t even being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, also be a dream or illusion, since being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, takes place in the dream or illusion?

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Wouldn`t all experiences a person have, also be an unreal dream or illusion? Thus experiences would not be important? Wouldn`t even being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, also be a dream or illusion, since being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, takes place in the dream or illusion?

LOL, this was a great post! A mind bender!!

The thick book, "The Disappearance of The Universe"* - is about this.
There is a difference in waking up in the Dream,
(meaning -that this IS a Dream or unreal or Illusion or a Cosmic Dance, in Hindi, a Lila, a play ...all of us actors on a stage),
and waking up out of the Dream....when we do that the Universe disappears for us.
The book, then, addresses HOW can we do this a bit quicker than perhaps some Paths that we take - all valid practices, of course.


*I must say, by page 35 was I surprised where he was going with this, Gary Renard.
And to think I had had the book on a shelf for almost 2 YEARS collecting dust!

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Wouldn`t all experiences a person have, also be an unreal dream or illusion? Thus experiences would not be important? Wouldn`t even being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, also be a dream or illusion, since being conscious or aware of the dream or illusion, takes place in the dream or illusion?

That's a given but I dare say there are not many that reflect what you say. I converse with other non dualists who proclaim the illusory dream experience and spit feathers at the corruption within and of this world.

On another point, it's not just there not being importance to experiences that are not real, it's that there isn't anyone actually present that can even say that life is but a dream.

There are so many aspects to peeps premises that don't add up, nor are they actualised / lived.

In the right circles you see it often where one can even suggest that everything of the mind isn't real or true and everything that is said reflects this, but will maintain a stance that what they say is true.

It's all a bit odd tbh, but everyone is welcome tho to their beliefs on all of this.

Peeps need to understand what constitutes an individual that can experience realities such as these.


x daz x