Why I'm not a Taoist

[django]

One has to climb the mountain indeed, and there are no clear ways up the mountain, so I can only rely on information from within to guide me (or a guide who has access to the truth from within themselves). To follow the Tao Te Ching would be as foolish as following any other supposed spiritual map, because though it has some truth in it how could one ever know which bits are true and which are merely opinion.

I agree he who knows doesn’t talk is back to front, we need the people who don’t know shutting up and quietening down to listen to the ones that do know. Then again, how are people to figure out who is actually in possession of the truth?

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 58 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by ayar415

When you came in, Still Waters was engaged with me on the Tao Te Ching. His perception was guided by the English translation. He asked, and I corrected the translation as much as I could to direct his view closer to the Chinese text. I requested him to tell me what he had gotten out of it but he would not say.

I did comment on your translation and said that I preferred your translation to the first two lines than the translation in my English version. While I preferred the English translation of the 3rd line to yours, I noted that I thought that your translation was probably more accurate especially with the reference to the "image of the emperor".

The two translations were so clear that no further comment seemed necessary.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 60 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by ayar415

He who knows does not talk makes no sense.

"He who knows does not talk " makes complete sense to me as there are clearly more effective means of communication other than inadequate words once one goes beyond the basics.

The Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn has said, "Even opening your mouth to express it, you are mistaken".

This is consistent with the rest of that Taoist Chapter:

"Close your mouth ... block the door ... quiet the senses ... and enter the primal oneness."

To quote Nisargadatta Maharaj, there are numerous primary teachers (the "talkers") to teach the alphabet.

You obviously prefer words, and that is fine.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 61 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by django

One has to climb the mountain indeed, and there are no clear ways up the mountain, so I can only rely on information from within to guide me (or a guide who has access to the truth from within themselves).

What you wrote resonates well with me, but I personally needed some direction (convincing basic guidance) many years ago to point me to "going within". One then leaves the books and words behind.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by django

I agree he who knows doesn’t talk is back to front, we need the people who don’t know shutting up and quietening down to listen to the ones that do know. Then again, how are people to figure out who is actually in possession of the truth?

"He who knows doesn't talk" makes a lot of sense if he is the one who knows where the cash is stashed and doesn't want anyone to get to it. But we are talking about the search for freedom from human suffering. You know the way out. Why won't you talk and tell others about it?

Even in our selfish material world, those who know would talk if you pay for the intellectual property, the knowhow to deal with your problem. The eye surgeon who knows would perform a cataract operation to restore your eye-sight even; and the dentist who knows would restore your lost tooth with an implant.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You obviously prefer words, and that is fine.

I prefer sanity in spirituality.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ayar415

I prefer sanity in spirituality.

In sanity, there is more peace and quiet.

[ayar415]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

In sanity, there is more peace and quiet.

Let's not contend over a point of view. Go with whatever floats your boat.

My approach to the study of the Tao Te Ching is academic and analytical, while the poetic rendition of its English translation has appeal to you.

The Chinese text is extremely compact and terse. Its meaning, obscure even to native scholars in academia, bears no semblance related to its English interpretation which merely invokes musings of the interpreter.

"He who knows does not talk" is comprehensible even to a kid because it is colloquial speak. Chinese characters can be used either colloquially or philosophically. Like chopsticks, their application is extremely flexible. You can recognize and pick them out in the Tao Te Ching, and also point to them in the menu of food stalls in a Wuhan street market.

Cultural appropriation is my objection. Reading the Tao Te Ching as you do is like prancing around with a full-feathered war bonnet making like Crazy Horse, Chief of the Lakota Nation.

Spirituality that is insensitive is mere superstition.

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 68 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by ayar415

My approach to the study of the Tao Te Ching is academic and analytical, while the poetic rendition of its English translation has appeal to you.

The Chinese text is extremely compact and terse. Its meaning, obscure even to native scholars in academia, bears no semblance related to its English

In any case, within the realm of inadequate words, the meaning was as clear as possible BOTH in your "academic and analytical" translation as well as in the "poetic rendition", as you label it.

You are correct about the Chinese text having a "meaning obscure even to native scholars in academia". I discovered that when I read the two Zen Classics (The Gateless Gate and the Blue Cliff Records from the Tang Dynasty period). The commentaries were necessarily extensive in order for the reader to grasp as best as possible the import of what was being communicated.

[Still_Waters]

I will add another excerpt from a chapter from the Tao.

71 (beginning):

Moving from knowing to not knowing --- this is good.
Moving from not knowing to knowing --- this is sickness.

I love this excerpt.