The Battle of Duality

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

An unmanifested Consciousness that manifests by illumining mind, thus giving the illusion of an individual consciousness.

In that case, what are you conscious of? Are you conscious of what I am conscious of? I'm not conscious of what you're conscious of.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I would label it a difference in understanding vs. a disagreement. All roads lead to Rome, so to speak.

Yes I too believe its difference in understanding . In non-duality or one-ness u have liberation and bliss and in duality also there is happiness . It's what one wants to take it and like it in the grand divine scheme of things .

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In that case, what are you conscious of? Are you conscious of what I am conscious of? I'm not conscious of what you're conscious of.

That requires an in-depth answer and instead of trying to explain it in a few short paragraphs I'll just provide some references from the Advaita perspective.

"Q.463 Individual consciousness"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/q-463...consciousness/

"The ‘Real I’ verses the ‘Presumed I’ – An Examination of chidAbhAsa"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/chidabhasa/

"Continuing Reflections (on reflections)"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/conti...n-reflections/

Here's the summary and it dovetails with what I posted about unmanifested Consciousness vs. manifested consciousness.

The ‘individual consciousness’ is reflected Consciousness in the mind. The phenomenal world is perceived by the senses and interpreted by the mind. You could say that, in a sense, our mind ‘determines’ the world that we see. It ‘decides’ how to separate out forms from the mass of perceived ‘stuff’ and it gives names to these forms. This is why different people perceive the world differently. But remember that even the mind is just inert stuff without Consciousness to ‘animate’ it.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

. But remember that even the mind is just inert stuff without Consciousness to ‘animate’ it.[/color]

Just to illustrate how it is common and easy to accept it logically , during our sleeping we just loose sense of everything and there is no conscious mind to think upon and analyse.

Originally Posted by HITESH SHAH

Just to illustrate how it is common and easy to accept it logically , during our sleeping we just loose sense of everything and there is no conscious mind to think upon and analyse.

I was looking for a free version with Shankara's commentary too but haven't found one yet.

"Mandukya Upanishad with Gaudapada's Karika"

https://swamij.com/upanishad-mandukya-karika.htm

Mandukya Upanishad Verse VII:

VII: Turiya is not that which is conscious of the inner (subjective) world, nor that which is conscious of the outer (objective) world, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is a mass of consciousness. It is not simple consciousness nor is It unconsciousness. It is unperceived, unrelated, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable and indescribable. The essence of the Consciousness manifesting as the self in the three states, It is the cessation of all phenomena; It is all peace, all bliss and non—dual. This is what is known as the Fourth (Turiya). This is Atman and this has to be realized.

Gaudapada's Karika on this verse (Visva - Waking; Taijasa - Dreaming; Prajna - Deep Sleep; Turiya - Atman)

10 Turiya, the changeless Ruler, is capable of destroying all miseries. All other entities being unreal, the non—dual Turiya alone is known as effulgent and all—pervading.

11 Visva and Taijasa are conditioned by cause and effect. Prajna is conditioned by cause alone. Neither cause nor effect exists in Turiya.

12 Prajna does not know anything of self or non—self, of truth or untruth. But Turiya is ever existent and all—seeing.

13 Non—cognition of duality is common to both Prajna and Turiya. But Prajna is associated with sleep in the form of cause and this sleep does not exist in Turiya.

14 The first two, Visva and Taijasa, are associated with dreaming and sleep respectively; Prajna, with Sleep bereft of dreams. Knowers of Brahman see neither sleep nor dreams in Turiya.

15 Dreaming is the wrong cognition and sleep the non—cognition, of Reality. When the erroneous knowledge in these two is destroyed, Turiya is realized.

16 When the jiva, asleep under the influence of beginningless maya, is awakened, it then realizes birthless, sleepless and dreamless Non—duality.

17 If the phenomenal universe were real, then certainly it would disappear. The universe of duality which is cognized is mere illusion (maya); Non—duality alone is the Supreme Reality.

18 If anyone imagines illusory ideas such as the teacher, the taught and the scriptures, then they will disappear. These ideas are for the purpose of instruction. Duality ceases to exist when Reality is known.


Concerning 13, remember that chart you put together and the different states and duality/non-duality?

Concerning 16, this speaks to my analogy of a lucid dream only in waking reality.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That requires an in-depth answer and instead of trying to explain it in a few short paragraphs I'll just provide some references from the Advaita perspective.

"Q.463 Individual consciousness"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/q-463...consciousness/

"The ‘Real I’ verses the ‘Presumed I’ – An Examination of chidAbhAsa"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/chidabhasa/

"Continuing Reflections (on reflections)"

https://www.advaita-vision.org/conti...n-reflections/

Here's the summary and it dovetails with what I posted about unmanifested Consciousness vs. manifested consciousness.

The ‘individual consciousness’ is reflected Consciousness in the mind. The phenomenal world is perceived by the senses and interpreted by the mind. You could say that, in a sense, our mind ‘determines’ the world that we see. It ‘decides’ how to separate out forms from the mass of perceived ‘stuff’ and it gives names to these forms. This is why different people perceive the world differently. But remember that even the mind is just inert stuff without Consciousness to ‘animate’ it.

Yet individual consciousness is still present in states of Being beyond the mind.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

Yet individual consciousness is still present in states of Being beyond the mind.

Peace

Not according to Advaita and I'm pretty sure the same applies to Buddhism.

The impression of individual consciousness is the illusion of duality.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

There aren't individual conscious beings. There's just Consciousness as in Existence Consciousness Bliss, or if you like there's just Being.

The perception of an individual and conscious "you" is the illusion.

In other words if there are separate individual conscious beings then there are many parts. I suppose that might be Oneness as in the One consists of the sum of all its parts but that's not non-dualism. That's squarely in the ream of dualism.

Even Samkhya, which is the basis of Yoga, is a dualistic tradition and recognizes One consciousness - Purusa - and the natural world is Prakriti.

Then for the third time of asking please explain to me how there can be both a self realised master and an unrealised seeker?

You have a bee in your bonnet that equates individuality with being separate from what you are ..

It's like a snowflake that is unique and is unlike no other, this reflects the individual from a mind body perspective .

I AM is not an illusion .

There is fundamentally I AM awareness of the mind .. this reflects an individual .

It's not an illusion .

One consciousness doesn't mean there are no individuals, it means that there is only what you are and what you are can experience individuality .

That is why you are arguing your point as AM I .

Are you arguing with yourself then?

Your understanding of illusions as said before are simply one sided text book reflections .


x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

Then for the third time of asking please explain to me how there can be both a self realised master and an unrealised seeker?

You have a bee in your bonnet that equates individuality with being separate from what you are ..

It's like a snowflake that is unique and is unlike no other, this reflects the individual from a mind body perspective .

I AM is not an illusion .

There is fundamentally I AM awareness of the mind .. this reflects an individual .

It's not an illusion .

One consciousness doesn't mean there are no individuals, it means that there is only what you are and what you are can experience individuality .

That is why you are arguing your point as AM I .

Are you arguing with yourself then?

Your understanding of illusions as said before are simply one sided text book reflections .


x daz x

You want me to explain 3,000 years of philosophy and commentary in an internet forum. Any summarized post I make is not going to be to your satisfaction.

What I will say is picture a lucid dream. When one attains lucidity the dream doesn't evaporate. The dream body is still there and I'm negotiating the dream territory via that dream body, however my state of mind has shifted to waking awareness and I know the dream, dream body, all other dream bodies, landscape, everything is me, the dreamer.

Taking that analogy to waking life and for a realized master Maya's power of projection doesn't cease, only it's power to veil. The realized master sees the truth of waking reality just like the lucid dreamer sees the truth of dream reality.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Not according to Advaita and I'm pretty sure the same applies to Buddhism.

The impression of individual consciousness is the illusion of duality.

It is one thing to quote Advaita, it is another thing to know the reality which Advaita is pointing to.

Another way to consider it is the symbol of the circle with the point at the centre. The circle is limitless Being. The point is individualised consciousness. We are both the circle and the point. It is the point which allows the circle to be aware of itself.

Peace