Only One - not two

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by sky123

One who, however, has fully penetrated the selflessness of existence, knows that, in the highest sense, there is no individual that suffers, that commits the kammic deeds, that enters Nibbaana, and that brings the Eightfold Path to perfection.

It is a beautiful quote sky123 and reflected as truth in the highest sense as it says.

It is an outcome of the full penetration of the Eightfold Path and one of many manifold ways in which Ultimate Truth might be relayed to a seeker, depending on their own spiritual status. In truth, one who does not understand kamma will suffer kamma, and the Buddha was always very careful in what he relayed to whom. In the Ultimate sense there is this, in the true sense there is that, but in actuality, it is beyond description and verse, although the Buddha Gautama did choose to teach.

The Buddha, Gautama, was highly skilled in ways of enunciation and teaching for the manifold seekers that came his way.

This is not to say any one way is the right way, although of course we are always pleased to read of the highest sense for it beauty cannot be adequately enunciated.

It still stands that the Right View in Buddhism is the right penetration of the Eightfold Path - a practical and proven method for seekers to discern the Ultimate. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/d.../samma-ditthi/

Not a foregone conclusion, by any means, regardless of one's quotation skills.

When one's knowledge is truly one's own

[Kaccayana:] "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

[The Buddha:] "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view."

— SN 12.15

Thanks again, sky123, for offering this quote.

shiningstars

[shiningstars]

This is a very accurate manuscript and the most preliminary of basic, inner realizations for the practicing Buddhist -

MAKA HANNYA HARAMITA SHIN GYŌ
The Great Prajñā Pāramitā Heart Sutra

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, practicing deep Prajñā Pāramitā clearly saw that all five skandhas are empty, transforming anguish and distress
Shariputra, form is no other than emptiness,
emptiness no other than form;
form is exactly emptiness, emptiness exactly form;
sensation, perception, formulation, consciousness are also like this.
Shariputra, all things are essentially empty not born, not destroyed;
not stained, not pure; without loss, without gain.

Therefore in emptiness there is no form, no sensation, perception, formulation, consciousness;
no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, no color, sound, scent, taste, touch, thought;
no seeing and so on to no thinking;
no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance,
and so on to no old age and death, and so no ending of old age and death;
no anguish, cause of anguish, cessation path;
no wisdom and no attainment. Since there is nothing to attain,the Bodhisattva lives by Prajñā Pāramitā,
with no hindrance in the mind; no hindrance and therefore no fear;
far beyond delusive thinking, right here is Nirvana.

All Buddhas of past, present, and future live by Prajñā Pāramitā
attaining Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi.

Therefore know that Prajñā Pāramitā is the great sacred mantra, the great vivid mantra, the unsurpassed mantra, the supreme mantra,
which completely removes all anguish. This is truth not mere formality.

Therefore set forth the Prajñā Pāramitā mantra,
set forth this mantra and proclaim:
Gaté gaté paragaté parasamgaté
Bodhi svaha!

[sky]

The Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore


Avalokiteshvara
while practicing deeply with
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore,
suddenly discovered that
all of the five Skandhas are equally empty,
and with this realisation
he overcame all Ill-being.

“Listen Sariputra,
this Body itself is Emptiness
and Emptiness itself is this Body.
This Body is not other than Emptiness
and Emptiness is not other than this Body.
The same is true of Feelings,
Perceptions, Mental Formations,
and Consciousness.

“Listen Sariputra,
all phenomena bear the mark of Emptiness;
their true nature is the nature of
no Birth no Death,
no Being no Non-being,
no Defilement no Purity,
no Increasing no Decreasing.

“That is why in Emptiness,
Body, Feelings, Perceptions,
Mental Formations and Consciousness
are not separate self entities.

The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena
which are the six Sense Organs,
the six Sense Objects,
and the six Consciousnesses
are also not separate self entities.

The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising
and their Extinction
are also not separate self entities.
Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being,
the End of Ill-being, the Path,
insight and attainment,
are also not separate self entities.

Whoever can see this
no longer needs anything to attain.

Bodhisattvas who practice
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
see no more obstacles in their mind,
and because there
are no more obstacles in their mind,
they can overcome all fear,
destroy all wrong perceptions
and realize Perfect Nirvana.

“All Buddhas in the past, present and future
by practicing
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
are all capable of attaining
Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment.

“Therefore Sariputra,
it should be known that
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore
is a Great Mantra,
the most illuminating mantra,
the highest mantra,
a mantra beyond compare,
the True Wisdom that has the power
to put an end to all kinds of suffering.
Therefore let us proclaim
a mantra to praise
the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore.

Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!
Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!
Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!”


A new translation of the Heart Sutra.
Thich Nhat Hanh.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Going to let thoughts roll here.

Everything manifested through creation is of the whole of creation.

Creation itself does discern whether this is or this is not.

Ones thinking how, why, what, and where something should be or seems to be affects that individual perspective, IMO.

But, the thinking does not eliminate what has been and is being manifested.
Individual forms, contrasts in forms, and blending of forms indicate to me that there are forms being manifested.

If not, then all that is lived and noticed would simply not be. Me, I, you, we, us and them would not be. Because whether in physical forms or in mental forms these have been created, they are with in the whole of creation.

Even those aspects that may manifest as another element or ethereal is with in the Whole of what is, has been, and can be created.

If not would any of this be noticed, realized, or even lived?

[jimrich]

OK, let's see how any of this aligns with:
"Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof" ~ Ramesh Balsekar .......

sky123
He [an appearance] who has not penetrated [deeds are done] the ego-illusion [individuality] and is still attached to [deeds are done] self-vanity [individuality] will believe [events happen] that it is he himself [an individual doer] that suffers [events happen], that it is he himself [an individual doer]that performs [deeds are done] the good and evil deeds leading to[events happen] his rebirth, [events happen] that it is he himself [the individual doer] that will enter[events happen]* Nibbaana, [i.e., the ultimate spiritual goal in Buddhism and marks the soteriological release from(i.e. salvation) [events happen] rebirths in saṃsāra.] that it is he himself [the individual doer] that will bring [events happen] the eightfold path to perfection.

jim: Well all of that pretty much fits with Balsekar's alleged Buddha quote!

sky123
One who, however, has fully penetrated the selflessness of existence, knows that, in the highest sense, there is no individual that suffers, that commits the kammic deeds, that enters Nibbaana, and that brings the Eightfold Path to perfection. In theVisuddhimagga*it is therefore said:
Mere suffering exists, [events happen] no sufferer [individual doer] is found. [does NOT EXIST!]

jim: Looks like Buddha was adamant that no individual EXISTS!!! You, the ego, DO NOT EXIST!

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there.*
jim: This is Balsekar's quote just REWORDED!

sky:
Nibbaana is, (exists) [events happen] but not (does NOT EXIST) the man [the individual EGO] that enters it. (jim: Strange use of words here. How can a "non-existing" man enter anything? I'd question that translation!)

The path is, (exists) [events happen] but no traveller [individual/ego] on it is seen. (does NOT EXIST!) [Jim: well Buddha is very clear here. You, an ego, DO NOT EXIST! - except inside of your own imagination.]

Further:

No doer of the deeds is found,
Jim: Because this "doer" does NOT EXIST!

No (individual) being [individual doer] that may reap [deeds are done] their fruits.

Empty phenomena roll on! [No-thing just HAPPENS!]
Jim: The term: Empty phenomena may come as close to describing or labeling that which happens and appears as anyone can come to it. Not bad! God is Empty Phenomena rolling on or just happening. Cool phrase!
This is the only right view.[events happen]

Therefore, wherever the doctrine of the selflessness [no individual/ego] of all existence is rejected, [deeds are done] the Buddha's word is rejected, [deeds are done] But wherever, through penetration of the selflessness [no ego/individual]of all existence, the ego-vanity [individual doer] has reached [events happen] ultimate extinction, there the goal of the Buddha's teaching has been realized: [events happen] freedom from all vanity of I and Mine, [the individual] and the highest peace of Nibbaana.[events happen]

Extracts from the Sa.myutta-Nikaaya on selflessness [NO INDIVIDUAL]

sky: I did post this on Jim's Thread but it was deleted by him.

Thanks for bringing it here so those who are not OFFENDED by Balsekar's quote may enjoy it for them selves. LOL, if Buddha never said it, he might have wanted to, since the Balsekar quote says exactly what Buddha APPARENTLY said in those extracts.... assuming any of those 'extracts" are authentic.
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/Selflessness.html[/quote]
IMO, Balsekar's quote is good enough and close enough to Buddha's words to help anyone, Buddhist or not, to see that there is NO INDIVIDUAL DOER anywhere and that all there is, is Empty phenomena happening and doing or manifesting as: you, me, us, we, them, etc. and appearing to DO things as individuals. It's a Paradox that the egoic mind CANNOT grasp. Buddha simply said that: Events happen, deeds are done and only said that empty phenomena roll on (AS these apparent happenings and deeds)! The moment you put a label on Divinity or god, it becomes just another (fallible) Something or individual! The infinite source cannot be labeled or named and Buddha knew that yet he tried with: empty phenomena! But the INDIVIDUAL egoic doer can be labeled and named - its called: you, me, I, we, us, they, them, etc.
Thanks, sky..........

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Well your answer for everything is 'It's a Paradox' and that's only more intellectual reasoning that supposedly happens that pertains to no-one . How have you ascertained that conclusion?

How have you ascertained that I ever said that "everything" is a Paradox? You need to go back and read my words more carefully and mindfully and without unfriendly judgement of them. Oh and BTW, I got that "paradox' thing form empty phenomena or the Nothingness.

How have you concluded 'There is only what is and what is not' was it Self realisation or is it just more intellectual reasoning / assumptions based upon the general consensus of the non duality crowd?

That's a judgement disguised as a question! You really are a tricky one! There is only what is, is seen with HONEST and direct observation. Try it.

Do you know the difference between Self manifest and Self unmanifest in relation to experience?

I don't need to "know". Do you?

Do you know the difference between awareness of I am .. and not?

Who cares? Do you know?
cheers,
empty phenomena

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by jimrich

jim: Looks like Buddha was adamant that no individual EXISTS!!! You, the ego, DO NOT EXIST!

Quote: "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali canon — the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings — you won't find them addressed at all. In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible.

Thus the question should be put aside. To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers."

To repeat: "the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a.../notself2.html

[shiningstars]

Originally Posted by jimrich

IMO, Balsekar's quote is good enough and close enough to Buddha's words to help anyone, Buddhist or not, to see that there is NO INDIVIDUAL DOER anywhere and that all there is

This would be quite amusing if it weren't for the sadness behind your fervor.

In Buddhism, it is called mistaking the fruit for the path, and if you don't believe you are doing anything or existing, it is a wrong view, as stated categorically by the Buddhist teachings in its entirety. As I said before, Buddhism is a system of teaching - not one in which those down in the foothills should "pick and choose" from.

The complexity, depth and perspectives of the teachings means those ill intentions behind "quote wars" can always find something to say and argue, but it belies the integrity of your process, and others, in trying to make a sophisticated and very deep, intensive practice/religion into "word games".

As others have done so, I will leave your thread and hope you find the peace you seek, although dragging others into the muddy depths of confusion is never a place of good foundation. Misery likes company, and believers are sometimes best left to their own devices in my opinion, and their own karma.

shiningstars

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

This would be quite amusing if it weren't for ...... the "quote wars"....

LOL. FIGHT ON........LOL!

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by shiningstars

Regardless of the answer you receive, words can never adequately encapsulate what is true or not for another.

lOL, Hey, you and Ground need to team up as a Martin and Lewis act or Abbot and Costello act. LOL

P.S. Are you both on the computer ALL DAY LONG??????