What I believe full enlightenment is

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

You feel your fingers as part of yourself right?

Non dual would be feeling the movement of a leaf on a tree as yourself in the same way as your finger.

You don't go anywhere to feel your finger, nor would you have to go anywhere to be the leaf, the universe, etc. You are all that.

Bliss and silence has many levels so there can be a danger on basing everything on ones current experience of either. I am sure you have seen that here at SF with some people..

You are right that enlightenment can have many definitions so it is best in a thread like this to lay out a definition.

To me it is moving beyond the ego self, to realizing the Oneness of all things as well as the emptiness of that Universal Oneness.

i understood where you were coming from. i know. i experince like a medium. i don't do it. but when i do i always just experience it as me. i dont go anywhere.

with that said. who is to say he isnt enlightened because of astral projecting?. right now you are communicating to me in seperation. right now im communicating to you in seperation. right now i would ask you how you feel. you would ask me. or whatever it may be.

so anyone can make a case about not being enlightened. it could very well be he enjoys exploring the universe through the perspective of astral projecting. it could be said we enjoy exploring life in a body as we are right now.

enlightement in my view assumes there is an end. i really don't care for the term. its very misleading imo.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

i understood where you were coming from. i know. i experince like a medium. i don't do it. but when i do i always just experience it as me. i dont go anywhere.

with that said. who is to say he isnt enlightened because of astral projecting?. right now you are communicating to me in seperation. right now im communicating to you in seperation. right now i would ask you how you feel. you would ask me. or whatever it may be.

so anyone can make a case about not being enlightened. it could very well be he enjoys exploring the universe through the perspective of astral projecting. it could be said we enjoy exploring life in a body as we are right now.

enlightement in my view assumes there is an end. i really don't care for the term. its very misleading imo.

Those who have realized can say.

Astral projection is dualistic, if you are that there is nowhere to project too. Such things are of the local mind.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

The thing about ananda (amanda) is that how many blissed out bunnies do you actually know that live busy stressful lives?

LOL :) So, if you are asking me if say Ekhart Tolle is actually living a truly stressful life, I would say no, he is not worried about his literal survival or where his next meal is coming from. IMO he and similar are not a guide for the perplexed, nor for the more certain either...

But if you look at Ette Hillesum, she was ill and on the verge of being incinerated...and yet she is the real character behind "Life is beautiful". If you are feeling troubled or worse, despairing or even cynical...this is where I pull out all the stops and refer you to this page.

https://the-formula.org/etty-hillesum-the-mystic-of-the-holocaust/

Ette Hillesum and many other mystics are not being proscriptive (or speaking from a place of ease). They are is simply authentic (and under great duress). However, I have particular regard for mystics who live(d) "in the world", like Ette Hillesum, which is where most of the rest of us must also live and not in a cave or a monastery (or a mansion, LOL).

It is easy to stay in a blissful state within a stress free environment, agreed?

Put a blissed out bunny in my world and lets see how long he or she lasts in bunny land ..

It's not so much permanence on it's own merit, it is all down to environment within experience.

For certain. For 99% of us, myself included, environment has or will have some effect. I know in past lives, the effect of environment was great upon my experience of live as poor, oppressed and downtrodden. The effect was real, my suffering was real, and I can feel those same threads today...I am very aware of this suffering wherever it exists.

Additionally, I have had some bumps on the road...I could not feel much at all for a few years, including bliss. Silencing your emotions is not right-aligned...it's barely human to live that way. It's a disability, really...one I have come back from. So here we are with having to deal with foundational bliss and also having thoughts and feelings, both, all together. And honouring them all. There's nothing for it

Put Rama Dama or whatever his name is into a customer complaints department for a 12 hour shift and lets see the OM mantra change into a *** mantra :)

Ram Dass is a hero for himself and perhaps especially for his generation. I do really just very much appreciate his wisdom of "be here now" and "be love now". It really is just that, after all. And he suffered quite a bit for this purity of insight so that we don't have to. I think he may actually be in the Ette Hillesum category, meaning he wouldn't be fussed. However, that said, I take your point for the 99% hahaha and I've been known to utter that "other mantra" myself ;) LOL....

I do get what your saying about the differences, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be difficult for difficult's sake, I am being more realistic than anything else ..

When I am off work and I am in solitude it doesn't take long for me to acclimatise to the peace and much changes energetically speaking ..

If I sat on a mountain top now or in a monastery with all my years of practice behind me I would be off this planet of self-awareness pretty sharpish ..

This I believe is more to the point than the floaty gurus speaking about permanent bliss ananda .

Like said how many bliss bunnies does anyone actually know and what are their current circumstances relating to their environment? Are they living in a one bedroom flat with 3 kids and an abusive partner for instance?
x daz x

When dealing with great trauma, for many of us, our emotional response just shuts down, so we can focus on survival and getting by. Many things could bring this on, including violence, threats, oppression, the death or illness of those we love, and so forth. And I completely agree, that in these circumstances, few of us will be Ette Hillesum, not because we'll go postal but simply because we may not be able to fully be and live from our centre if it's damaged.

In that regard, the betterment of humanity is really at the core of humanity's awakening, because first we need to survive and then we need to heal adequately. And you make a very good point in that regard.

Peace & blessings
7L

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Those who have realized can say.

Astral projection is dualistic, if you are that there is nowhere to project too. Such things are of the local mind.

and the same can be said about life. i get what your saying. but im not god and there is a mystery about things that nobody knows. the gurus account of bliss and silence was enough for me.

[Shivani Devi]

About Ram Dass being a customer complaints officer...I am musing over this..

Whenever we are in a very stressful situation, the "default mode" is to allow ourselves to become stressed out BY it, (which also includes any superlatives)...it is a prehistoric, instinctual vestige from the time we were being chased by bears and giant carnivorous bunnies.

The "stress response" is part of the interaction between the lymbic system and the amygdala which is habitually formed. Meditation is the key to undoing mental habitations.

Really though, the key to keeping one's cool in very stressful situations is emotional detachment and this comes from a lifetime (perhaps many) of catching the stress reaction at the first instance and turning it into a cold, ambivalent response. This takes a hell of a lot of practice, but it becomes pretty much autopilot after a while....

"Yes sir/madam, I acknowledge your deep pain. How terrible it must be for you to have us overcharge you by 10 cents on your phone bill...yes, I can appreciate how devastated you must be by this...you mustn't have had a very happy childhood and it is such a shame I cannot give out hugs over the phone or I would squeeze you very tight right now..."

It is pretty easy when you get the hang of it..

"Hey boss, why you firing me after an hour? I was fully prepared to do my 12 hour shift here...would you like a healing?...what is it you are saying? are you telling me to sod off? Oh well, Ram Dass doing a 12 hour shift at a customer call centre just wasn't meant to be...

I know! I will change my name to Richard Alpert, get a psychology degree at Harvard, then join Timothy Leary and take a truckload of acid and 'shrooms....yep, that sounds like a plan..."

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Great (dare I say 'enlightened') love-and-wisdom sharing, 7L.

Daz, perhaps this will help you to digest (as opposed to spit/vomit at) the 'food for thought' that you are being served:

Think of a professional player playing a game that s/he loves playing. S/he may be and gloryingly remain 'in' the 'zen-zone' even if and when and after experiencing 'failures' (to score) and/or 'losses' (i.e. scores against her/him) etc. because s/he is so into 'the game' that playing it (for all s/he is worth, with all her or his mind and heart).

Amateur players, on the other hand, contnue to get 'caught' up in dysphorically feeling 'irritated' and so don't love and enjoy the game, thinking and feeling the game 'sucks' (is unfair, etc.), 'envying' those with greater talents, higher scores, etc., 'wishing to quit' (get 'out' of the game), etc.

What are you on about? Who's spitting and vomiting out the info being shared? I am simply questioning what is being offered up and thus far I don't agree with what's being said.. Is that alright with you?



x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by running

ok. i will do my best to explain how the brain and nervous system work. there is no understanding it except from that. which is why i said i cant help you. now im going to try. but keep in mind im limited to what words i can use on the forum. no issue with that. im just saying.

the brain does many things. one of its jobs is to work along side with the nervous system. it releases natural chemicals into the body. the body has many nerves everyehere. those nerves react to what is released by the brain. the reaction in the body and in the mind from the nerves being activated feels very pleasureable.

all of this is facilitated by the feminine aspect of the divine. you may literaly feel the movement of spirit like a current flowing in the body. that flowing of spirit is what makes the pheomena happen.

the process is experinces of such for moments. to minutes. to hours. to days. to permanence. this may take a few years to a lifetime to become permenant. maybe months for somebody.

it is extremely weird for something to happen which makes one angry, sad, or whatever negative emotion while being flooded with this joy. that is weird. i understand your confusion. its weird for the person to experience. over time it is no longer weird. it just is.

the benefit of being in this joy from spirit while bad things happen. is its all experinced in this joy. therefore things aren't experinced so harshly. and they dont last nearly as long.

what it feels like for the person is like i said about the river. the river(bliss) washes everything into the ocean as they arise.

i sincerely hope that explanation helps.

I appreciate the attempted explanation, the main sticky point for me as already said is that in Love there is no fear or hate or anger that can arise and likewise in my experience of Bliss there was no self reflection of anger that can arise, there is no fly that can irritate you so to speak .. What I am hearing is that one can be permanently Blissful and Joyful while cursing the fly and it doesn't work for me at all .. Thanks again tho ..

I really do think that we are speaking of two different things here, what you call bliss is not what I call or refer to bliss .. This could be the issue.


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

LOL :)

But if you look at Ette Hillesum, she was ill and on the verge of being incinerated...and yet she is the real character behind "Life is beautiful". If you are feeling troubled or worse, despairing or even cynical...this is where I pull out all the stops and refer you to this page.

https://the-formula.org/etty-hillesum-the-mystic-of-the-holocaust/

Ette Hillesum and many other mystics are not being proscriptive (or speaking from a place of ease). They are is simply authentic (and under great duress). However, I have particular regard for mystics who live(d) "in the world", like Ette Hillesum, which is where most of the rest of us must also live and not in a cave or a monastery (or a mansion, LOL).

Thanks for the link regarding etty, I haven't heard of her before ..

Just a few points to make on a brief read through..

As per link ..


In the face of her impending death, she endeavored to bear witness to the inviolable power of love and to reconcile her keen sensitivity to human suffering with her appreciation for the beauty and meaning of existence.

With increasing regularity, Etty described her compulsion to drop to her knees in prayer.

she felt a deep calling to be present at the heart of the suffering, to become “the thinking heart of the concentration camp.”


This doesn't reflect a permanence of bliss and Joy there is noted sufferings present . This reflects in the need to pray for the sufferings to cease. This is very important to note what I am saying because in permanent bliss there is no noted sufferings, there is no need to pray to God ..

Do you understand this key point?.. In permanent Joy or Bliss there are no emotions of anger that arise . If such emotions do arise there isn't permanence there . It's no good suggesting in my eyes that this super duper state is floating in the background and is always there while your chasing the fly around the room with a swatter ..


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I am very aware of this suffering wherever it exists.

And this is the very point that I am making .

You are either over and above the emotional suffering or you are in the midst of it .

You can't do or be both ..

Permanently being joyful and blissful won't entertain anything else ..

There is no bliss software running in the background when you are grieving for lost loved one's ..

The nature of life on earth is experiencing the ups and the downs, the sun and the rain ..


x daz x

[Shivani Devi]

Cool.

Perhaps for daz and maybe J Krishmurti there is no such thing as an "enlightened state" but for everyone else there IS.

Just like how for an Atheist, God doesn't exist, but for a Theist, he DOES.

Watch me do all my stealth "ninja posts" on SF because others are too busy arguing with each other over 'effed if I know'.

Anybody seen the popcorn?