Are We In Heaven Now?

[psychoslice]

Ciel_Perdu;You come across rather harsh here, pyschoslice. Sure the poor make mistakes, they have more kids than they should, but the ironic reality is that there IS enough food for them and all their kids, if it wasn't for places like the U.S, U.K, and Oz taking all the resources, raping the land, and exploiting the poor. You can blame it on ignorance, and to a certain degree you're right, but it does sound like you have a convenient doctrine that exhonerates you from responsibility.


This is my whole point, because of ignorance we put ourselves and others outside of heaven, when all along we are there already.

[Adrienne]

When a certain musician or musicians serenade me, I am in heaven !

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

I wrote:

Pyschoslice wrote:


You come across rather harsh here, pyschoslice. Sure the poor make mistakes, they have more kids than they should, but the ironic reality is that there IS enough food for them and all their kids, if it wasn't for places like the U.S, U.K, and Oz taking all the resources, raping the land, and exploiting the poor. You can blame it on ignorance, and to a certain degree you're right, but it does sound like you have a convenient doctrine that exhonerates you from responsibility.

Can you see areas of your life where you contribute to the inequality of the world? Can you see any areas of your life where greed stops you from showing love to poor who are dying or starvation? Can you see areas of your life, where you support the system that does all that I have mentioned above? Are their areas of your life where you are ignorant? Perhaps you pay taxes which are used to fund the war machine, to rape the third world in the name of Australia?

The point of my questioning is to show that we are all, to a greater and lesser degree responsible for the plight of the poor. We are all ignorant, and non of us reflect Heaven in it's puriety on this earth at this time.

What I do find interesting, that while you blame the poor for being ignorant and causing their own problems thus not being able to enjoy the 'heaven' that they are supposed to be living in, Jesus actually says that ''heaven belongs to the poor'. He said that those ''who hunger will be filled, those who weep will laugh''. James also says that God will ''lift up the poor''. While there are 'poor' in the west, I think the poor that Jesus seems to be saying will get an express ticket to heaven are those who are dying from starvation, who don't have much they can do to escape their situation, a situation that has been put on them by the greedy profit driven corporations, who give us what we all desire.

And by comparision, Jesus said that 'Woe to you that are rich, for you have recieved your consolation'', ''woe unto you that are full, for you shall hunger''. James said that the ''rich will be made low''.

How much are we prepared to take a stand against all the ignorance that causes suffering and war? Are we prepared to do as Jesus did? Jesus taught that we should ''sell what you own and give the money to the poor''. That seems like a great way to help them, and to challenge our own ignorance and greed in the process. How many of us are willing to do that?

You ask ''who put these people in that situation''...well...in short, YOU and ME! Our desire for comfort, for convenience, for pleasure, for respectability, and for possessions, essentially, for the freedom to do what we want to do.

Absolutely FANTASTIC post Ciel! I could not have said it better myself!

Can you imagine going to Sudan or Somalia and saying to a starving person "Hey you're already in Heaven! You just have to believe it and it will be true?"
I could no think of anything much more inappropriate to say, actually!

As you say Ciel, it is not fair to blame the poor for their poverty. Their poverty is a direct result of exploitation by rich countries, and what we really need to do to bring heaven down to earth is to SHARE what we have and not be materialistic.

I do detect a grain of truth in Psychoslice's post though, that I would like to speak to. She/He said...

This is my whole point, because of ignorance we put ourselves and others outside of heaven, when all along we are there already.

It's true that IF people genuinely tried to create Heaven of Earth that it could have far reaching and potentially massive results (depending on how many people get involved). I have worked with small groups of committed people before and I know how effective we can be as change agents, even if we are few. But I think that is a very different approach to telling people that all their problems would be solved "if they just believed that they were already in heaven".

I get the feeling that I am not fully understanding Psychoslice's position and she/he is being a bit misunderstood here. I would like to understand what Psychoslice means when she/he says that we are already in Heaven. Could you explain what you mean please?
I have heard people say that "Heaven does not exist and that we just have to do the best with what we have here", but that does not seem to be what you are saying.
I may not be hearing you properly Psychoslice, but it sounds to me like you are saying that if people believe they are in Heaven, then they will be. Is that right?

Thanks. Beans

We are all in heaven on earth now/same as heaven after life

I agree that heaven(temple of God) is within and no matter what circumstances we go though we can find our communication with God/spirit.

I don't know about "we" or any other person but during my vision when God spoke to me saying at the end of my path I will come to Him. He took me into the "oceanic" Light at the end of my "path" in which I experienced perfect peace and joy and love. If it was not Heaven it seemed so to me. It was Home.

I am not "there" now.

Originally Posted by Mary Baker

I don't know about "we" or any other person but during my vision when God spoke to me saying at the end of my path I will come to Him. He took me into the "oceanic" Light at the end of my "path" in which I experienced perfect peace and joy and love. If it was not Heaven it seemed so to me. It was Home.

I am not "there" now.

During a spiritual experience, one that came during a lengthy fast, it seemingly came to a point where I began to burn. This experience had occurred during the beginning days of my "Christianization." My thoughts now upon reflection are that the closer we come to the light or the holiness of God the greater we become known to sin. I perceived the love and joy of the light of God, but am convinced that one cannot stand in the Lord's presence or lay eyes upon Him without burning, or solely speaking for myself that is what the experience had revealed.

Eliminating poverty is an admirable endeavor but it takes more than food to sustain us for the short duration of ethly life to make heaven. Those of us who eat our fill (or more) every day are not in heaven as a result.

Heaven (IMHO) is" Peace and Love and Joy where the soul never dies". It is the indescribable joy and belonging experienced in The Light. It is true Home.

It is not in this present material life. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you that where I am you may be also." Although "place" may not be an exact description, it is indicative, I think, of that which is probably beyound our present comprehension. In any event, we (or at the very least I,) am not in that "place" now. However, it does exist, I have stood in the doorway and experienced the spiritual fulfillment.

I know the "taste" of it.

It's true that just eliminating poverty in itself would not mean that there would be heaven on Earth. However, I think this is something that will happen when there is heaven on Earth.

For me heaven is a place where physical needs and spiritual needs are always being met. So while there is a level of emotional joy and peace, I think there is also a rational and practical aspect of living in heaven. In other words, we're not just floating around on a "high" of sorts, but we're also getting practical things done as well as continuing to grow spiritually.

We aren't in Heaven , as there is a literal Place known as Heaven. Nevertheless, the person who seeks a continual relationship with Christ and allows the Holy Spirit to complete that inner work in their soul will find themselves living in Heaven while also physically on this Earth.

In a sense, that person will have already entered the "Kingdom of God' in spirit while still being in their body.