The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The sutras that Maisy has mentioned are using the term "god" or "gods"

My sense is the translator chose the word 'God' because English has no translations for 'deva'. It's probably an address to the Hindus, who have all sorts of Gods, but Buddhists don't worship any. Someone like Vishnu or Krishna would be thought of as enlightened ones that came before Buddha or something like that. It sounds to me like Buddha refers to Hindu Gods, and not Gods in Buddhism (because we don't have Gods - but there are devas). That's how I interpret it on face value, but I have never seen that Sutta myself.

There are peculiar Buddhist sects who practice 'divine being' worship, but they are real outliers and generally not seen favourably. Someone like the Dalai Lama would tend to disassociate with such sects. Some other sects have a special monk they visualise, and this was a practice of a group I meditated with called The Diamond Way. The trouble with these groups is not that they do these peculiar things, but that they have sectarian practice which is isn't universal dhamma. Hence, the Christians can visualise Christ and call Him God for all the difference it makes, and have a band of angels... It's basically the same thing, and each sect is identified by their own specific iconography.

From a Buddhist perspective, you can be Hindu, Christian, be of a specific Buddhist sect, worship the Spaghetti Monster or be a complete material atheist - or not. No one is included or excluded on such criteria, and you can sit and feel your breath no matter what.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

There are peculiar Buddhist sects who practice 'divine being' worship, but they are real outliers...

I think it would depend on the country and culture as what is done and believed varies so much from place to place. I would guess Buddhist cosmology is not a big thing in the USA but then in Burma it is. Buddhist cosmology describes the planes and realms in which beings can be reborn and the various types of higher and lower beings like demi-gods etc.

In the USA Buddhism is probably about mindfulness and meditation and maybe some rituals depending on the center. In Burma Nat worship is common. Practitioners of nat worship believe that everything in the world is governed by nats, or spirits. Places, people, trees, rocks and areas of life are all associated with particular spirits – and not all of them benign. Nats can guard and protect, but they can also be mischievous and vengeful, and some even have the power to possess people and force them to do their bidding. These types of nats require offerings to keep them sweet, and Burmese people will often leave out food and other gifts to placate them.

I guess if it is not our cultures way it's an outlier? It probably seems that way as all we experience is our cultures ways of doing things or believing. There are about 49 million Buddhists in Burma and 3.5 million in the USA so we would be the outliers or fringe based on population. The UK has 240,000 Buddhists...China has 244 million Buddhists...Japan 46 million. Based on population, everybody is an outlier to Chinese Buddhists.

Some common Chinese Buddhist practices:

paying homage to Triple Gems
veneration of Buddhas and Bodhisattvas
through offerings of incense, flowers, food, etc.
offerings to Devas who reside in the heavenly realm
paying respect to one's own ancestors during Qingming and Zhong Yuan Festival
conducting or participate religious services to pray for one's own ancestors and the souls of deceased to attain peace and liberation (超渡)

[sky]

A Deva in Buddhism is a type of Celestial being who shares the god-like characteristics of being more powerful. So if they share the 'god like' characteristics who is the god they share the characteristics of?
Buddhist Scriptures from every School accept gods/Gods/Divas etc: so to say ' because we dont ' is obviously incorrect.....

[sky]

[Quote Maisy Post 562]

Good explanation
Different Cultures/Traditions/Schools etc: all see things differently.

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it -The Buddha.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Some common Chinese Buddhist practices:

When it comes to the universal, it applies to everyone regardless of their cultural-religious background, and if there are different planes and rebirth is a thing, then that's how it is even if not everyone knows it, but you don't have to believe in any of it. I haven't heard of nat worship, and maybe they do that in Burma, and in America it's mostly Mary and Jesus and angels. That's what sects do, a whole lot of different things, and would be no problem as a cultural practice except there's a lot of attachments, delusions, blind faith and superstition going on.

I was told Triple Gem was: Buddha is the quality of enlightenment (in yourself), Dhamma is the way of nature, and sangha is your spiritual community. Hence we don't take refuge in an iconic figure or old teachings or in an order of monks. The sangha is hard because people aren't trustworthy and you can't take refuge in sangha unless people are trustworthy. None of those things are empty religious rituals. I don't think people should be taking refuge in a Buddha-person-icon any more than I think they should take salvation in Christ, because that's all sectarian mental fabrications - not real things in everyone.

The things I mentioned are universals, so it starts to add up. Morality brings trust and safety. That's real-life refuge. Your own inner sanctum is real refuge and trusting natures way is real refuge. Religious icons and guys in robes are sectarian imaginings, and lighting incense at a shrine is all good, maybe it's a traditional thing as well, but it's basically insignificant and doesn't make any difference if you do that or not, but it can be, and often is, tied to deeper delusions, so as a general rule I'd strip it away to minimise associated mental fabrications. But that's just me. I prefer not bothering with superfluous things - veneration most of all.

[sky]

Or the Three Jewels-The Buddha, The Dhamma (doctrine, or teaching), and the Sangha (the monastic order, or community).


Buddhang saranang gacchami
I go to the Buddha for refuge

Dhammang saranang gacchami
I go to the Dhamma for refuge

Sanghang saranang gacchami
I go to the Sangha for refuge.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUESTION: Are you suggesting that the Buddha needed to include "God" in his discourse on loving kindness and Love?

No, I am only concerned with a universal Love that is at the core of my being.
That which connects me to everything but yet is ineffable.
I might even say it is a Divine Love that permeates everything with it's essence.
I call it many names to point at "it".

So if Buddhism isn't talking about that I have no real use for Buddhism but I think Buddhism is talking about "it".
Though as they say it may be "Lost in translation".
I believe the rebirth cycle will refine us into more and more of this Universal Love.
I believe karma,meditation,morality,cause and effect will ultimately bring us into this Universal Love.
So I think Buddhism is pointing to "it" but I trip up on it's language.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

No, I am only concerned with a universal Love that is at the core of my being.

Well Metta, (loving kindness) is an attitude of 'Universal love' that is radiated to all living beings in the world without any discrimination......
In Buddhism there's four 'Divine' states of mind and 'Metta' is the first of these divine states.

Imo 'Divine' thoughts are Metta.....

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

No, I am only concerned with a universal Love that is at the core of my being. That which connects me to everything but yet is ineffable. So if Buddhism isn't talking about that I have no real use for Buddhism but I think Buddhism is talking about "it".

I think it is within Buddhism, it is within all world religions somewhere I would guess because it is within us all or it is us, our true selves. It is even in a house and family that has no religion at all. But while it is there, as our true nature, does it manifest? See one house can be full of violence and hate and another full of love, but the entity that is love is present in both.

This is just how I see things but when I ask myself if everyone is love, if love is what we really are, what is the cause of the violence, hate, anger etc? My conclusion is this body. This human body that Buddhism says we are in for a limited time then leave, then return again to another body in rebirth.

But the house full of love has bodies in it, just like the house full of hate, so what is going on? The house full of love has bodies too. So why are some bodies manifesting our true nature and some are not? My conclusion is our true nature dominates those bodies manifesting love and peace. Our true nature is in control and is dominating the nature of the body. The house full of violence, the nature of the body is dominating.

So that's our path to me. To align the nature of the body, of our consciousness, to the nature of our true selves. I've heard it said that Buddhism is the only world religion that has not gone to war with others. So if that is true, Buddhism was made well as a way to get the love message across.

All the nat worship, praying to spirits, prayer wheels, I don't have anything against such things. I don't care what beliefs and practices people have. One person collects rocks as a past time another gardens another paints another does nothing at all, it doesn't really matter as the goal is inner and outer peace. How that is achieved is up to us. How we maintain it and nurture it. I don't think a religion is necessary to find and maintain it, but others who have found it can sure be great examples and guides pointing the way.

Originally Posted by sky

Well Metta, (loving kindness) is an attitude of 'Universal love' that is radiated to all living beings in the world without any discrimination......

Imo 'Divine' thoughts are Metta.....

Radiating universal Love toward all living beings is a noble and worthwhile Endeavor.
It is very hard to do when full of attachments and 'self' preserving ego.
But then it can happen easily when flowing and taking refuge in the primordial essence.