how do you talk about mindfulness?

[AnotherBob]

"Your only concern should be,
as thought follows thought,
to avoid clinging to any of them."

~Dogen Zenji

__/\__

[sky]

Originally Posted by AnotherBob

"Your only concern should be,
as thought follows thought,
to avoid clinging to any of them."

~Dogen Zenji

Yes, let them pass by like clouds floating across the sky.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

I personally can't see how the process can go all that far without a foundation...

Yes I think there is more to it. But people may or can ignore that part. Loving kindness, morality, goodness, selflessness. Ego is not really interested in such things. And ego's can be on a spiritual path. So many examples of persons who meditate everyday, sit in Zazen, in silence, mindfulness or whatever and they do extremely immoral things to others. They can rise to high positions within religious groups. They think of themselves as spiritually superior to others etc. Love to argue, put others down, use others for various egotistic pleasure's. Extremely self centered. Even with the ability and practice of meditation and so on they can be very delusional when interpreting the actions and sayings of others and themselves.

But then what others do or don't do is usually not my concern. But if they are in my life somehow due to karmic influences one has to deal with such individuals. The universe put such individuals in my family for this incarnation. It's amazing how much damage I see them doing to everyone in their orbit. They have meditated many hours a day for like 50+ years. They hold high positions in a spiritual community. Oh I remember another family member who is not religious or spiritually interested at all and they also wrecked all around them. So it's not like religion or spiritual practice makes such individuals. It's just such types are found everywhere in everything. Even in the highest levels of religion and spirituality.

I think eventually after thousands of incarnations one gets tired of having and being an ego (thus in the cycle of re-birth) so then one pursues such things as selflessness and having no self interest or ego. I think some of these things supersede or take the place of spiritual practice or intersect it. But then yoga goes into this topic as well as different paths, karma yoga etc devotion, helping others, introspection and contemplation, lead to the same goal. I think selflessness is linked to mindfulness as a whole lot of stuff one would normally be entertaining in mind or thought drops away when one is selfless or having no self interest. But then they have self interest right, but they believe it is in their self interest to put others first, before themselves. Like the idea or concept of some Buddhists who decide to keep incarnating until all are free.

bodhisattva (in Mahayana Buddhism) a person who is able to reach nirvana but delays doing so out of compassion in order to save suffering beings.

In selflessness, one is not thinking of self and that alone ends a lot of thought and thinking. Ends a lot of desires and seeking.

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think there is a natural progression insofar as spiritual purification goes, and that is universal for everyone. The Buddhists just defined it into clear categories

I personally can't see how the process can go all that far without a foundation in truthfulness and trust, so I'd probably Buddhist underpinnings of finding out what causes suffering and stop doing that, so my discussion will be more of less along those lines.

Yes I can see how that has come to be. Through my own step by step process, I’ve learned to see the association to Buddhist text, in similar relationships.

Being truthful with yourself is often really tricky in those deeper aspects, simply because identity and roles, deep seated patterns in behaviours, stories and beliefs, can be difficult to let go of.

Yes I tend to relate more so, on ceasing suffering, mainly because most people often want things to stop in that way first and foremost, all the other stuff I mentioned unfolds through processors in their own way and time, if it’s needed.

I was doing a Pilates session one on one with my Pilates coach and at the end we were talking about those markers, in the practice, where you step out of your comfort zone, I had a few yesterday, but I just got curious and was inspired I’d found something more challenging to work with. Her on the other hand, mentioned during a recent championship for a sport she participates in, how when she reaches that marker and goes immediately into the ‘I can’t do this’ ‘I don’t want to do this weight’, she notices herself, but she was honest. Regardless that truthfulness is what it’s all about. Openly letting those words come out, noticing, paying attention and becoming aware. Trusting in all of you, listening and becoming aware of yourself.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Loving kindness, morality, goodness, selflessness. Ego is not really interested in such things. And ego's can be on a spiritual path. So many examples of persons who meditate everyday, sit in Zazen, in silence, mindfulness or whatever and the In selflessness, one is not thinking of self and that alone ends a lot of thought and thinking. Ends a lot of desires and seeking.

True. In my view at least, mindfulness is what ego isn't able to feed on. The whole game of ego is distraction, reaction, temptation and aversion. The principle of mindfulness is not participating in those games. If we have that sort of underlying principle, a meditator can assess if their practice adheres to or contradicts such fundamental underpinnings. I also think the huge majority spiritual paths are ego-centric, and there is only one true way, which is nature's way.

When it comes to morality, ego rebels because you can't do whatever you want, but morality is unavoidable because if there is a free for all, one person imposes on another, and without ethical boundaries of consent, it's complete mayhem. Permission is critical externally just as allowance is critically internally.

So... whereas trust is important, one has to understand what to trust in and what not to trust in. The reason morality is automatic is we all know what truthfulness is like. There are two safe bets and one risky bet. Trusting in the indestructibility of your being and allowing nature's way are safe bets, but trusting people is risky, but no one makes it alone and we have to trust someone. In Buddhism we say 'refuge in the Sangha', but you cannot trust immoral people and 'refuge' depends completely on being trustworthy.

We all have to deal with nincompoops we can't trust, so we all have to create boundaries. Hence a forum has rules and the ashram has a code of conduct, otherwise it degenerates into a free for all overflowing with smut, abuse and everything else ego can feed on.

It's better principles of respect, consent, confidentiality, generosity, honesty, and fundamentally speaking, have no urge to elicit reactions that cause suffering in yourself or for others.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by JustBe

you step out of your comfort zone, I had a few yesterday, but I just got curious and was inspired I’d found something more challenging to work with. Her on the other hand, mentioned during a recent championship for a sport she participates in, how when she reaches that marker and goes immediately into the ‘I can’t do this’ ‘I don’t want to do this weight’, she notices herself, but she was honest. R

It can be, but one has to assess in themselves if the 'can't, and 'don't want' is really sensible, due to fatigue or injury risk etc. or if it is just negativity. Usually it's just negativity which is false thinking which weakens you. It comes with a reactive feeling - unhappiness - but although that's easy to recognise, it's also easy to justify, which is dishonest. We all know people who can't see outside that loop. We all go there, into that loop, but as long you can still see what's really going on with youself, the negativity remains powerless and can't get a grip.

Since the person is a champion, she knows how to overcome, and to me, that's a good life lesson. In meditation, the way can get rough, but just like Buddha sat out all the troubles of Maya and the temptations of his daughters, you can be present and undisturbed as the whole world burns. The athlete also demonstrates full determination and complete effort, so I like the moral of the story

When we start with breath awareness we see it straight away, frustration, negativity, "I can't do this', 'nothing is happening', 'wen enlightenment', and a host of self defeating thoughts,'I'm not good at this', 'I'll never get there', 'I'm hopeless' and so on. Then you realise how this is how you live in day to day life, with all the reactions and miserable thoughts that are completely untrue - and then - notice what it's like as this breath comes in, goes out.

[JustBe]

@Gem

Yeah the physical factors need to be acknowledged as you’re saying. Listening to your body as only you can do, especially in the many ways we exert ourselves and sometimes don’t listen.

It’s not so surprising how many live with negative self talk, when the crunch comes and you see yourself in this way, at least you’ve got a choice next time just by being aware of yourself, in how your treating yourself within.

Yes she’s competing at a higher level so with that, where she resides, comes another level of competition with herself in that competition. People doing bigger weights than her best, more reps etc..it opens you to look at yourself and potentials of yourself. There’s so much if how one lives their life in general, in all those things.

[Dogensoto]

Now almost 75 I've basically accepted much about myself. I say "myself" without much idea of what - or who - I'm actually talking about. I tend to find it's more about truly seeing what we are not, and what we "are" can be itself without much calculation. My "mindfulness" is left to my string of mala beads that I always have with me in my pocket, waiting at bus stops, waiting for my number to be called out at McDonald's, just walking.......I'm counting them off - well, not exactly counting, more "namu amida butsu".

What does it all mean? Who knows. I just find the "answers" of others.....theologies and beliefs, hopes and assertions.....beyond my own capacity to share.

Sometimes this old world just breaks my heart.

[Dogensoto]

Good thread by the way. Thanks.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Dogensoto

My "mindfulness" is left to my string of mala beads that I always have with me in my pocket, waiting at bus stops, waiting for my number to be called out at McDonald's, just walking..

Im not so sure that the Dalai Lama visits McD... or stands at a bus stop but He does take His Mala Beads with Him everywhere He goes .
Do you use the Wrist or string one's?
My Mum took Her Rosary Beads everywhere She went....

Namu Amida Butsu.(I take refuge in Amida Buddha)....