Why believe in God, if you have never experienced Him?

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

Hi Tabitha,
I just read your opening post from months ago about Gareth. It is amazing.
In the end you say that you now have proof about spirit's existence.
You also say that you want to know if it truly is Gareth.
After reading it, it seems without a doubt that it is and without a doubt that it is there to give you the proof or expereince you needed and insisted upon.
I think it takes more faith to believe that all that happened was cooincidences than to believe that they were not.........no?
James

Hi WS,

Yes, I would love to think so, too. There've been a number of pointers which seem to indicate that it might be him, but... I dunno, I guess I've the sort of personality that will always doubt myself - it's like, I'm just boring little me; why would someone who was famous "visit" me after death; I never met him in life, that sort of thing. And yes, I understand that it doesn't make any difference how well known you were when you were alive, once you're dead, but still... And what if it's just some japester entity trying to kid me that it's Gareth, or worse, some "demon"... Even though the entity has never done anything harmful or worrying. Heck, I'm such a doubter, aren't I!

Mind, I don't know if this came across in my early posts here, but I've never actually, to my mind, ever gone actively looking for, or particularly felt the need to find any proof of life after death. I just got interested in Gareth's music, felt an immense sadness and loss for his demise, even though it was nine years after the event, and began visiting his grave because well, I'm Catholic, (though non-practising) (as was he), and that's what we do, right?

And it did make feel better, and more at peace, eased the choked up feeling I had been feeling before. I don't really know why it made me feel better; it just did. At the time, for all I knew, there was no afterlife. The activity just started spontaneously; at no point did I say, or think, "Hey, Gareth - I want to/need to know if you're still around!" Nothing like that. I remember feeling particularly strongly that he couldn't be, just couldn't be "gone" altogether - it seemed impossible. But again, I didn't really know if that was all just wishful thinking. Then I started getting the activity, which was undeniably real.

Anyway, all I can say is, if it is Gareth, I just wish I could thank him in person, and tell him just how much I adore his music, and how it's helped me over the years.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Tabitha

Hi WS,

Yes, I would love to think so, too. There've been a number of pointers which seem to indicate that it might be him, but... I dunno, I guess I've the sort of personality that will always doubt myself - it's like, I'm just boring little me; why would someone who was famous "visit" me after death; I never met him in life, that sort of thing. And yes, I understand that it doesn't make any difference how well known you were when you were alive, once you're dead, but still... And what if it's just some japester entity trying to kid me that it's Gareth, or worse, some "demon"... Even though the entity has never done anything harmful or worrying. Heck, I'm such a doubter, aren't I!

Mind, I don't know if this came across in my early posts here, but I've never actually, to my mind, ever gone actively looking for, or particularly felt the need to find any proof of life after death. I just got interested in Gareth's music, felt an immense sadness and loss for his demise, even though it was nine years after the event, and began visiting his grave because well, I'm Catholic, though non-practising) (as was he), and that's what we do, right?

And it did make feel better, and more at peace, eased the choked up feeling I had been feeling before. I don't really know why it made me feel better; it just did. At the time, for all I knew, there was no afterlife. The activity just started spontaneously; at no point did I say, or think, "Hey, Gareth - I want to/need to know if you're still around!" Nothing like that. I remember feeling particularly strongly that he couldn't be, just couldn't be "gone" altogether - it seemed impossible. But again, I didn't really know if that was all just wishful thinking. Then I started getting the activity, which was undeniably real.

Anyway, all I can say is, if it is Gareth, I just wish I could thank him in person, and just how much I adore his music, and how it's helped me over the years.

Two things Tabitha…………

• When I read your opening post about Gareth, my impression of you was “what a level headed woman”. Now I can see that that is your demise….lol
• Did you ever hear the joke about the guy drowning in the sea and asking for God’s to save him. In short, 3 times a boat came by and he refused help because he was waiting for God to help him. Well he died and at the pearly gates he asked God “why didn’t you save me” God exclaimed “I sent you 3 boats!” Your unbelief of what happened and happens at your house along with all the other signs reminds me of that joke…lol

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

Two things Tabitha…………

• When I read your opening post about Gareth, my impression of you was “what a level headed woman”. Now I can see that that is your demise….lol
• Did you ever hear the joke about the guy drowning in the sea and asking for God’s to save him. In short, 3 times a boat came by and he refused help because he was waiting for God to help him. Well he died and at the pearly gates he asked God “why didn’t you save me” God exclaimed “I sent you 3 boats!” Your unbelief of what happened and happens at your house along with all the other signs reminds me of that joke…lol

Heh, heh, I guess you're right. Maybe all this time I'm wondering, is it really you "visiting" me, Gareth, why won't you let me know, he is like, "I already blimmin' told you in that dream, you daft moo!"

I hope so, anyway!

For me, life is experiencing God...

[Jyotir]

Miss Hepburn:
The belief is the experience of God..

Well, it may be. Burning my hand may be...but not what I am referring to here.

I am referring to your basic, everyday, easily recognizable Supernatural experience of the Spirit of God
or I'd settle for a glimpse of some kind into the Spritual Realms where
the Doors of Perception are opened to the Reality of Existence ---consciously.

Ok, I'd settle for a visitation from an angel ----any angel.
Just something where you really ''get'' that there is a Superior Power.

And if you have not - why does one consciously, deliberately still believe in this God?


(Parrots are like the walking dead, I get that.

Hi Miss Hepburn,

Ok, forget the Aurobindo quote, which is arguably somewhat tangential.

Maybe I just don't get what you are asking, but I am not sure what you are looking for that I could provide in a pov that wasn't already in my previous response, ie, including:

Jyotir"...some people receive consciously a major 'definitive' recognition/awareness experience, or incremental 'lesser' ones"

Are you asking - do people have to be clobbered over the head to become believers? If so, my answer is an emphatic, "no", not necessarily - although it happens.

MH "Ok, I'd settle for a visitation from an angel ----any angel.
Just something where you really ''get'' that there is a Superior Power.

MH "...easily recognizable Supernatural experience of the Spirit of God
or I'd settle for a glimpse of some kind into the Spritual Realms where
the Doors of Perception are opened to the Reality of Existence ---consciously.

You incorrigible bhaktas with your ideal forms!

All kinds of experiences are apparently easily recognizable and that is where belief originates, or reflects in, I guess.
Whether the experiences are Supernatural or extraordinarily natural - they are part of the same continuum, and that is the journey. I guess some need a big explicit road-sign, while others proceed through much more subtle markers - or none. Belief is really knowing the 'destination' through SOME faculty, but it doesn't have to be through the big 5 (senses), through obvious literal imagery.

Some people even do get a 'definitive' BIG experience and then they doubt, deny, or forget it (like with incarnation). I think it has to do with necessity, but also receptivity. It is receptivity that allows even the so-called mundane to be experienced as sacred.

People cannot "recognize" what isn't already part of them and it is that recognition - conscious recognition - on some intuitive level which is identified as God, Divinity, etc. IOW's God appears as 'God' in whichever way is efficacious for the seeker to recognize - including within the belief itself - 'evidence' or none, as it is self-evident. For some, perhaps this needs to be more dramatic to make the point.

Arjuna didn't really know who Krishna was even after Krishna told him, but when he saw Krishna's 'Universal Form' he was trembling with belief. For others the belief comes from an intuitive identification, an internal recognition. Not everyone needs a big Annunciation, although it happens quite often, more than we might hear about I'm sure.

Is that what you are looking for? because I am honestly not really sure.

~ J

[Jyotir]

@ White Shaman and Starbuck, Thank you. ~ J

[Miss Hepburn]

Jyotir,

I know, who really knows what I'm asking?
Just keep talking I love listening to you.

I guess I wondered how people believe in something
they have not experienced. What compells them to?
What is the need, for example. How can they?

Now, if they have for even a few seconds gotten a glimpse of, say,
touching a flower and the thrill of their Cosmic Beloved suddenly
should pass through 'some faculty in an extraordinarily natural manner' to them...well, then they
would not qualify as not experiencing 'something' of the Divine.

I have a hard time with the statement, "belief is the experience of God',
though it is part of God's Cosmic Tapestry. And I will ponder your sentence " including within the belief itself - 'evidence' or none, as it is self-evident."

Belief =not knowing, not sure, to me.
Why place one's faith in something one has never gotten the slightest magical glimpse of? That's the main question.

Many people here have had profound experiences.

But many have not had even a one- yet, they believe.
Or maybe it's a hope or wish that the stories of others are true.
That seems logical - to aspire for something unseen, but experienced by others.

That must be it.

I love your sentence:
"It is receptivity that allows even the
so-called mundane to be experienced as sacred."


Do you see the dot over this i ?
That would not exist if not for Him. You and I are blessed to know this.
We are in Him and He in us - the outside of the glass is the same as
the inside of the glass - yet one holds the water and the other is held by you.
Same glass... One glass. Inside, outside the same.


Love you.

I moved from following Neale Donald Walsh to Yogananda as Walsh said a few things I knew were wrong. But Yogananda's homages to God were difficult for me.

I was resentful of God up until maybe a year ago. I learnt to understand what my fixations/bad feelings were about and Yogananda brought up ones resenting God that I had never thought or felt before.

Obviously they came from a past life, but why would I have past-life fixations about a God that didn't exist? I didn't have any other past-life fixations about stuff that didn't exist.

And still Yogananda compelled me to search for him. And so I did. And a couple of years later, Yogananda's teachings helped me to meet God.

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Just curious...bec as I read on forums it seems apparent so many have not
experienced Him/It/She.

I don't know for a fact that I have not experienced something that other people have also experienced and labelled "God". I may simply be labelling differently.

Is it just something built inside you to believe?
Something in the soul?

If you want my opinion, it's in the brain, and it could be the result of different "wiring" or something similar. I apparently don't have that "wiring", however one may come by that.

I think trust is a good thing - I mean,
there are so many beautiful scriptures, so
some of them must be right, right? Is that why?

Trust is based upon belief. If I trust Jack, that presumes that I believe that Jack exists.

If I don't believe that Jack exists, that does not mean I lack trust. I simply don't trust Jack. I may trust Jill. Or I may trust myself.

And if one believes, but has never experienced Him - do
you seek Him/It/ She?

No more than I seek Gandalf. Why would I?

Father, Mother, Vishnu, Krishna, the Divine?
Jesus and Krishna have both said, Abide in me --- how does one do that
if you have never experienced Him?

One doesn't. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't valid alternatives. I may achieve the same (or similar) spiritual benefits in different ways.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Miss Hepburn]

eudaimonia, I agree...why seek God when you can seek Gandalf.
Because someone told you to?
So you are like 2 friends of mine in particular -
they are content as they are - they don't give God a second thought.
It does not seem hardwired into you.
Exactly my point.

While others, it seems to be.
Thank you.