Differences between Indian beliefs and New Age

I should ideally say something in defence of the "New Age" type of whatever it is.

I feel sure that like many a barrel of Apples there will be the bad one here and there. A Lot of what comes under the umbrella title of New Age is in fact borrowed or adopted from the Old Age way of doing things.

New Age comes in for a lot of criticism when a lot of it, Gaia worship , Crystal Healing and many things that might be considered new agey have been around since Neolithic Pagan times.

[SeaZen]

Interesting thread,

New Age IMO, is a movement of europeans and white americans raised in the "fundamental christian" tradition who wish to reconnect to the universal spiritual feelings that have been abandoned and subverted by the distorted teachings of fundamental christianity which IMO were not the true teachings of the man called Jesus but an attempt to manipulate and control the masses by political powers of the time.

In their effort to do this, they have studied and borrowed from not only native american spirituality but buddhism, hinduism, wicca etc.

I find nothing wrong with this. Buddhism and native american spirituality have many things in common. Spiritual truths seem to be universal, the difference is in the rituals. The biggest difference is that as a culture, the native americans walked the walk and lived these spiritual principles more so than any other nation on earth. There was no racism, sexism, ageism etc. All were respected and valued for their roles and the earth and all of its animals and plant beings were respected as well. Thats is why they are held in such high regard around the world and why many in the new age movement wish to emulate them. They are such a great example for the rest of us!

As with all movements, there are some who are ONLY in it to make money but most are not IMO. Unfortunately "money energy" is the way of the world now and thats what is needed to survive and that is dynamic on which we all operate. People don't share food and shelter with their spiritual teachers these days. It is a function of writing books and holding seminars for money.
They shouldn't be personally judged for being placed in this situation.

Greetings, SeaZen.

Interesting reply.

How can you so sure that people don’t share food and shelter with spiritual teachers ? Money, or “money energy” has no part in traditional spirituality, at least no good part. Traditional American Indians have no need to borrow different aspects of spirituality from Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, or Wicca. More or less turning spirituality into a stew made up with bits and pieces of different beliefs all in order to make it more appealing or better tasting. Too bad most of the time this new age stew is sold to the spiritually hungry instead of offered freely.

Oddly enough when traditional American Indians do share truthful information concerning rituals, ceremonies and other aspects of our ancient cultures, the majority of the new agers are not at all interested and more or less ignore such if it doesn't fit into their stew pot. The proof is in the pudding.

Enlighten us ‘native americans’ more about being placed in a situation.

Vernon Foster of AIM -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YcyHtmB114

Beverly Bunn, Sedona sweat lodge survivor -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx8YC...eature=related

Again -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCLmT_M-qtk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CPxoSp58pE

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Wisa'ka

Greetings, SeaZen.

Interesting reply.

Greetings and thanks for your reply Wisa'ka

How can you so sure that people don’t share food and shelter with spiritual teachers ?

Well, Im sure in some cases this is done directly in some places in the world e.g. after a lesson, the student gives his instructor food and shelter. However, in this day and age it is done mostly using money i.e. the spiritual teacher writes a book and the student buys the book thus enabling the spiritual teacher to use the money to buy food and shelter.

Money, or “money energy” has no part in traditional spirituality, at least no good part.

This may be the case for "traditional spirituality" but it is not practical in a world where money energy reigns supreme (for the moment). Money, just like television is a neutral energy in and of itself. It is how it is used and who is using it that gives it its positive or negative qualities. Money energy has been used for the most part positively in the new age movement to awaken, heal and enlighten the masses via books, internet, seminars etc.

There are not very many spiritual teachers out there and it is impractical in this day and age for those seeking spiritual enlightenment to travel and place themselves in the physical presence of a teacher as was done traditionally. If we insist on doing things this way it will take much much longer for world to become enlightened than it would if we were to use the money energy positively by disseminating books etc. I for one count myself among those who has spiritually benefitted from the dynamic of money energy that placed the necessary books in my possession in order to awaken from the traditional christian stupor I was in. I am not sure if I would have awakened in this lifetime if it was not for that.

Traditional American Indians have no need to borrow different aspects of spirituality from Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, or Wicca.
More or less turning spirituality into a stew made up with bits and pieces of different beliefs all in order to make it more appealing or better tasting.

I wholeheartedly agree as traditional Native American spirituality and way of life IMO was and is the most highly advanced and evolved form of spirituality on the planet because as a culture they lived it and expressed it.

However, I personally feel that no one culture has a monopoly on spiritual truths and that their way is the only way or the best way. There are many spiritual truths in all traditions. There is nothing wrong with looking to all traditions, taking from them what works for you and forging your own spiritual path. IMO we do not know or have experienced everything there is to know and experience about spirituality. Spirituality IMO is dynamic and ever evolving and not set in stone. If we are merely to follow a path laid down by our ancestors without looking to expand our understanding beyond their teachings we have missed the point. Not everything was given to our ancestors all at once. I am sure they evolved and expanded their understandings from generation to generation. What I like about the new age is its zeal to evolve and take spirituality to a level we have not seen before.

Too bad most of the time this new age stew is sold to the spiritually hungry instead of offered freely.

Yes I agree it would be nice for this new age stew to be offered freely and in many cases it is if you have an internet connection. However, as I mentioned above, we are unfortunately bound by this money energy in order to survive and we need to use and transform it in positive ways so that we may eventually free ourselves from it and evolve beyond it.

Oddly enough when traditional American Indians do share truthful information concerning rituals, ceremonies and other aspects of our ancient cultures, the majority of the new agers are not at all interested and more or less ignore such if it doesn't fit into their stew pot. The proof is in the pudding.

Really? Can you give me some examples of when Native Americans have shared such information? I have not been exposed to the benefit of such sharing and would very much like to experience this. I personally have tried very hard to find resources regarding native american spirituality. Can you recommend some books and websites or events? Many of the websites I have come across only offer the history and not the nuts and bolts of their spirituality.

Enlighten us ‘native americans’ more about being placed in a situation.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Could you please provide more details?

Namaste!

SeaZen

Money, oh what an energy LOL!

Perhaps you skipped right over this thread’s opening post. Go back and see what it says about money exchanged for rituals. You mention spiritual monopoly and I completely agree. At one time we enjoyed all the bounties of this land, but others figured we had a monopoly on the natural resources which in their minds they first thought should be shared. The natives allowed them a part. When these others discovered how much wealth could be derived from the land, they wanted more.

“However, I personally feel that no one culture has a monopoly on spiritual truths and that their way is the only way or the best way”

That’s about what natives heard when the others wanted more land, figuring our way of life we had lived for thousands of years in this land was not the best way. Meaning the best way was to utilize the land in a way that would bring them money.

One can argue why the traditional Indians want to keep these differences, but still we choose to do so even if our commitment falls under scrutiny.

People have attained bits and pieces of this knowledge, modified it, wrote/sold books and charged outrageous fees for rituals or classes. Some make a living off of it while a good many others have made fabulous fortunes, a few of them claiming friendships with, or positions of power among the tribal people they claimed to have attained such information from.

“Really? Can you give me some examples of when Native Americans have shared such information?”

You really don’t have to look all that far, however some of what you should be looking for may be obscured by smoke from the cooking fire which cooks this new age stew.

Such blending of our traditional beliefs with personal greed is not all that healthy and sometimes results in tragedy.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Wisa'ka

Money, oh what an energy LOL!
.

Yeah...you said it all there! Hopefully we can evolve beyond this energy!

Perhaps you skipped right over this thread’s opening post. Go back and see what it says about money exchanged for rituals.

OK, i went to the opening post and only saw the following:
9 Money. Rituals are done for money.

Rituals done for money does not sit well with me either. IMO if one is to gather with others for spiritual rituals, money has no place there. I was speaking of shared spiritual knowledge. How is one to share knowledge nowadays? A book is a great vehicle for that.

You mention spiritual monopoly and I completely agree. At one time we enjoyed all the bounties of this land, but others figured we had a monopoly on the natural resources which in their minds they first thought should be shared. The natives allowed them a part. When these others discovered how much wealth could be derived from the land, they wanted more.

Yes, what you describe definitely took place. The christians of that time were highly self righteous and thought their path was the only way and that everyone should follow it or else. They thought they had the monopoly on spirituality and forcefully imposed it on everyone else instead of sharing and approaching spirituality with an open mind. Unfortunately many still feel this way. Judaeo/Christianity/islam IMO in their fundamentalist, distorted forms were a great spiritual tragedy inflicted on humankind.

As far as spiritual monopoly, I was referring to the sharing of buddhist and hindu traditions. As I mentioned earlier, traditional christianity has been distorted and subverted and is not worthy of sharing until the intentional distortions have been cleared. This is however changing as the book called "a course in miracles" among others have come about that are clearing things up.

“However, I personally feel that no one culture has a monopoly on spiritual truths and that their way is the only way or the best way”

That’s about what natives heard when the others wanted more land, figuring our way of life we had lived for thousands of years in this land was not the best way. Meaning the best way was to utilize the land in a way that would bring them money.

I was under the impression that the christians of that time were not that open minded about spirituality and were of the self righteous "this is the way it is and the only way and you better follow it or else" mode and that they enforced it with violence, ethnic cleansing etc. Correct me if I am wrong.

One can argue why the traditional Indians want to keep these differences, but still we choose to do so even if our commitment falls under scrutiny.

There is nothing wrong with keeping the differences. That is what makes things interesting. If we all followed the same path things would be boring. There are many roads to the top of the mountain. I still however feel that it is a good thing to expand and look for a greater/expanded/evolved spiritual knowledge no matter what tradition you may follow as all or our ancestors have done. This can be done within traditions or via forging your own unique spiritual path.

People have attained bits and pieces of this knowledge, modified it, wrote/sold books and charged outrageous fees for rituals or classes. Some make a living off of it while a good many others have made fabulous fortunes, a few of them claiming friendships with, or positions of power among the tribal people they claimed to have attained such information from.

This is true. If I want to receive knowledge of Native American spirituality I prefer to go to the source rather than the snake oil salesmen who repackage it and sell it.

“Really? Can you give me some examples of when Native Americans have shared such information?”

You really don’t have to look all that far, however some of what you should be looking for may be obscured by smoke from the cooking fire which cooks this new age stew.

I respectfully asked you for specific resources of Native American Spirituality in my earlier posts Wisa'ka and would greatly appreciate any help you have to offer in this regard as I am an earnest seeker, though your warnings of the new age stew are also appreciated

Such blending of our traditional beliefs with personal greed is not all that healthy and sometimes results in tragedy

The videos you posted illustrate this succinctly. If I want to experience a sweat lodge, I would choose to learn and experience this process from a Native American spiritual shaman instead of some some self proclaimed "new age guru".

A conquered and subjugated people who have had their traditional way of life drastically changed by their conquerors, most American Indians are less well off by modern standards than other Americans. It comes as no great surprise that some Indians have and continue to advance themselves by selling off their tribe’s sacred ancient knowledge to more business minded others. Certainly some Indians make out by doing just that. The more money savvy enterprising Indians could perhaps wrangle a new car, several big paychecks, maybe a new pad, some starry eyed admirers and fashionable attire out of such business endeavors providing he, or she show up at book signings, assist in admission charged weekend rituals like vision quests, sweats, or else giving hokey ‘Native Americans’ names to non-Indian people. A payoff from those who make even bigger fortunes selling our sacred knowledge to others.

Then there are those who have taken advantage of the more desperate American Indian people by purchasing such knowledge for a bag of groceries, a bottle of booze or a little drinking money. Poverty, starving family members and alcoholism weakens people, making them more easily taken advantage of.

The American Indian activists fully realize how much ‘money energy’ can be generated from our sacred ancient knowledge and know that those who attain much wealth from such are none too pleased when their practices are questioned, or contested. I imagine it would be like someone stating that cigarette smoking is bad for people’s health while attending a Phillip Morris Tobacco Company board meeting. A conflict of interest, wouldn’t you say ? We know people like Brooke Medicine Eagle, Kiesha Crowther, or Lynn Andrews along with their associates and faithful followers are quite put off by American Indian activists and guardians of that sacred knowledge. No doubt there are those of them who have and will continue to contest us.

Call it a monopoly if you will, not the first time I’ve heard it put that way, but we feel that dollar signs have no place on our different spiritual paths. By applying a sense of economical profit to such ancient and sacred knowledge, one has not the slightest notion of what we are about.

"I respectfully asked you for specific resources of Native American Spirituality in my earlier posts Wisa'ka and would greatly appreciate any help you have to offer in this regard as I am an earnest seeker, though your warnings of the new age stew are also appreciated"

Even if we chose to,I don't think my 'teachers', or myself could provide these resources in such a venue of communication as what we have here. An 'earnest seeker' would come up short. Another person here has made a request for reservation Indians to contact him. Perhaps in time they will, but sometimes it's better to go where the people are at natural places associated with their lives and spirituality.

Many of us come from a heritage where war played an important part of our lives, but for all the fighting prowess on the field of battle, the most important aspects of our being were the words spoken in council lodges, sacred rituals, journeys, songs, dances, hunting, farming and dreams. More conflict has been settled in those council lodges than in battle.

Every so often I think of the words spoken by an Oglala man who joined a wild west show in 1886 so he could travel to the big American cities and abroad so as to gain a better understanding of American society and help his own people survive their subjugation. In 1887 he even visited England and performed for Queen Victoria. After experiencing life in large cities like Chicago, New York and London, he accepted a painful reality. Later he gave an account of what he experienced -

“ I did not see anything to help my people. I could see that the white people did not care for each other the way our people did before our nation’s hoop was broken. They would take everything away from each other if they could. And so there were some who had more of everything than what they could use, while crowds of people had nothing at all and maybe were starving. They had forgotten the earth was their mother. This could not be better than the old ways of my people”

~ Heháka Sápa, or Black Elk

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Wisa'ka

A conquered and subjugated people who have had their traditional way of life drastically changed by their conquerors, most American Indians are less well off by modern standards than other Americans. It comes as no great surprise that some Indians have and continue to advance themselves by selling off their tribe’s sacred ancient knowledge to more business minded others. Certainly some Indians make out by doing just that. The more money savvy enterprising Indians could perhaps wrangle a new car, several big paychecks, maybe a new pad, some starry eyed admirers and fashionable attire out of such business endeavors providing he, or she show up at book signings, assist in admission charged weekend rituals like vision quests, sweats, or else giving hokey ‘Native Americans’ names to non-Indian people. A payoff from those who make even bigger fortunes selling our sacred knowledge to others.

Then there are those who have taken advantage of the more desperate American Indian people by purchasing such knowledge for a bag of groceries, a bottle of booze or a little drinking money. Poverty, starving family members and alcoholism weakens people, making them more easily taken advantage of.

The American Indian activists fully realize how much ‘money energy’ can be generated from our sacred ancient knowledge and know that those who attain much wealth from such are none too pleased when their practices are questioned, or contested. I imagine it would be like someone stating that cigarette smoking is bad for people’s health while attending a Phillip Morris Tobacco Company board meeting. A conflict of interest, wouldn’t you say ? We know people like Brooke Medicine Eagle, Kiesha Crowther, or Lynn Andrews along with their associates and faithful followers are quite put off by American Indian activists and guardians of that sacred knowledge. No doubt there are those of them who have and will continue to contest us.

Call it a monopoly if you will, not the first time I’ve heard it put that way, but we feel that dollar signs have no place on our different spiritual paths. By applying a sense of economical profit to such ancient and sacred knowledge, one has not the slightest notion of what we are about.

"I respectfully asked you for specific resources of Native American Spirituality in my earlier posts Wisa'ka and would greatly appreciate any help you have to offer in this regard as I am an earnest seeker, though your warnings of the new age stew are also appreciated"

Even if we chose to,I don't think my 'teachers', or myself could provide these resources in such a venue of communication as what we have here. An 'earnest seeker' would come up short. Another person here has made a request for reservation Indians to contact him. Perhaps in time they will, but sometimes it's better to go where the people are at natural places associated with their lives and spirituality.

Many of us come from a heritage where war played an important part of our lives, but for all the fighting prowess on the field of battle, the most important aspects of our being were the words spoken in council lodges, sacred rituals, journeys, songs, dances, hunting, farming and dreams. More conflict has been settled in those council lodges than in battle.

Every so often I think of the words spoken by an Oglala man who joined a wild west show in 1886 so he could travel to the big American cities and abroad so as to gain a better understanding of American society and help his own people survive their subjugation. In 1887 he even visited England and performed for Queen Victoria. After experiencing life in large cities like Chicago, New York and London, he accepted a painful reality. Later he gave an account of what he experienced -

“ I did not see anything to help my people. I could see that the white people did not care for each other the way our people did before our nation’s hoop was broken. They would take everything away from each other if they could. And so there were some who had more of everything than what they could use, while crowds of people had nothing at all and maybe were starving. They had forgotten the earth was their mother. This could not be better than the old ways of my people”

~ Heháka Sápa, or Black Elk

What you just wrote was very profound and illuminating. I now understand the dynamic of the sharing and teaching of your ancient knowledge. It is something that is lived and shared within community and with one another as it always has been. I guess to merely publish a book about it would miss the point and to "sell the sacred ancient knowledge short" so to speak as it must be lived and experienced.

I can understanding not taking on pupils deep into the sacred ancient knowledge within this forum but is there anything you can share with us that would be of benefit as most of us are not in a position to move close to a reservation.

Thank you for this dialogue Wisa'ka

Namaste!

SeaZen

P.S. I would like to share the meaning of Namaste with you which originates in India:

The gesture Namaste represents the belief that there is a Divine spark within each of us that is located in the heart chakra. The gesture is an acknowledgment of the soul in one by the soul in another. "Nama" means bow, "as" means I, and "te" means you. Therefore, Namaste literally means "bow me you" or "I bow to you."