Science Makes God Unnecessary

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

I am aware that both science and spirituality are loaded with theories. I was simply pointing out that science uses theories as a starting point. Obviously every theory has not been and will not be proven. But the actual objective of science is to investigate its own theories until identifying what can be proven. There is gravitational theory, but there is the law of gravity. Research has proven certain things about gravity, only that which has not yet been proven remains theoretical. It is a misrepresentation to suggest that science is full of only theories.

Science is not half as monolithic as you make it out to be. Let's take your example above, gravity. Science has absolutely no idea as to why gravity exists, all they can do is describe it and use the descriptions to predict outcomes. The current model, created by Einstein, describes gravity as a curvature of space. This does not mean that gravity curves space, but that gravity behaves in a way that is best described as a curvature of space. In fact, gravity drives physicists bonkers; it does things that, according to many scientific ideas, should be impossible. For example, gravity has no outside limit to it's influence. Gravitational fields weaken massively as one gets further from the object, but they never disappear completely. Gravity also acts instantaneously, no matter what the distance involved. Einstein referred to this as "spooky action at a distance", since gravity seems to move faster than light.

Another example is the relativistic distortions as one approaches c, the speed of light. If you accelerate an object to 87% of c, it behaves as though it's mass has doubled. This does not mean that it's mass increases, just that it behaves as though it does. In fact, if you were on the object, it would not seem like your mass has increased at all. Instead, it would seem like distances you travel would contract by 50%. So which is true, the mass increase or the distortion of space? Science cannot tell us, all they can do is describe the behaviors.

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

I get what you are saying that science can not offer meaning, and that the nature of Divine is a subjective experience that can not be objectively studied. The fact that we each interpret God and/or meaning differently could very well be because it is an individual experience rather than an actual universal truth of some kind. However, the very nature of subjectivity is that we don't have the actual answer. Maybe we all interpret differently because we simply do not yet understand the true nature of things. There's a big difference between "We don't currently know for sure." and "We will never know for sure."

The only objective/open minded point of view, in my opinion, is that anything is possible, including that we might one day discover and understand the true nature of what we call the Divine.

Ooohh, that's a slippery slope there. Subjectivity does not mean that we don't understand the true nature of things, it means that there is no "true nature". If you start thinking that there is a true nature out there to be found, you may start thinking one day that you have found that "truth". Once you start thinking you have "truth", you can very easily start thinking that those who believe differently are "wrong". Belief that there is a "true nature of the Divine" is what causes closed-mindedness. Only by coming to one's own personal interpretation of the Divine and allowing others theirs completely can we ever have a peaceful world.

CS

Originally Posted by CuriousSnowflake

Science is not half as monolithic as you make it out to be. Let's take your example above, gravity. Science has absolutely no idea as to why gravity exists, all they can do is describe it and use the descriptions to predict outcomes. The current model, created by Einstein, describes gravity as a curvature of space. This does not mean that gravity curves space, but that gravity behaves in a way that is best described as a curvature of space. In fact, gravity drives physicists bonkers; it does things that, according to many scientific ideas, should be impossible. For example, gravity has no outside limit to it's influence. Gravitational fields weaken massively as one gets further from the object, but they never disappear completely. Gravity also acts instantaneously, no matter what the distance involved. Einstein referred to this as "spooky action at a distance", since gravity seems to move faster than light.

Another example is the relativistic distortions as one approaches c, the speed of light. If you accelerate an object to 87% of c, it behaves as though it's mass has doubled. This does not mean that it's mass increases, just that it behaves as though it does. In fact, if you were on the object, it would not seem like your mass has increased at all. Instead, it would seem like distances you travel would contract by 50%. So which is true, the mass increase or the distortion of space? Science cannot tell us, all they can do is describe the behaviors.



Ooohh, that's a slippery slope there. Subjectivity does not mean that we don't understand the true nature of things, it means that there is no "true nature". If you start thinking that there is a true nature out there to be found, you may start thinking one day that you have found that "truth". Once you start thinking you have "truth", you can very easily start thinking that those who believe differently are "wrong". Belief that there is a "true nature of the Divine" is what causes closed-mindedness. Only by coming to one's own personal interpretation of the Divine and allowing others theirs completely can we ever have a peaceful world.

CS

I don't know what you mean by monolithic, but I personally find everything you just described about gravity to be fascinating. I mean only to describe my personal appreciation for the efforts of scientists in pursuing the theories that led to the above conclusions. And my personal disappointment in any manner of thinking that discourages asking further questions to find the answers to the mysteries that remain.

And I think stating assertively that there is no "true nature" to be found is exactly the kind of thinking that discourages asking questions. If a person loses interest in these questions, or finds a suitable theory to sustain them in a satisfying way; that is still no reason to say that all people should surrender their curiosity.

addendum:
I can't help but notice that you think it is true that there is no truth. And you actually warned me that if I think differently, I might become even more deluded down the road. I don't believe or not believe. I wonder. I am curious.

And I do have a current interpretation of the Divine and its meaning to me. I'm not convinced it's true, it is just what makes the most sense to me with what I have seen and experienced so far. More will be revealed.

Chrysaetos said (sorry quote not working)
"It's often the religious who are close minded and don't like it when spiritual stuff are just natural phenomena. I always try to keep an open mind but that does not mean I simply accept every belief out there as real, or as probable. Having an open mind means critical thinking, not just absorbing everything without questioning."

aKuna said
This is true but not just with religion it includes all belief systems, as those who adhere a belief do so because they feel it's right. Even science and medicine are closed to their beliefs as being right. If you hold belief system your most likely to be a bit closed minded because you feel it right. We as a whole need to learn Acceptance of All. this does not mean adhering to all, it only means accepting someones belief is right for them just as our belief is right for us. If we keep an open mind having recognized that the Unified Field is Expansion itself then we should be prepared to accept change in all forms within our own beliefs. Now I'll say that it does not get easier, it gets only harder the more you accept the more we see there is to accept outside ourselves and not being what we are presently resonating as a frequency. What we believe resonates a frequency and thus becomes us.
We all know Spirituality is not religion....it may sort of sound like it or even the occult with the work spirits.....
"Spirituality is our relationship with our Spirit Within"
that unseen part of self we call Essence. Language is so limited it is very hard to speak spiritually without making it sound like some belief system. Very fine line here!

P.S. when we totally open our mind to acceptance we begin to see how there is a tread of continuity in all belief systems based on the Spirituality we all hold within.

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

I don't know what you mean by monolithic, but I personally find everything you just described about gravity to be fascinating. I mean only to describe my personal appreciation for the efforts of scientists in pursuing the theories that led to the above conclusions. And my personal disappointment in any manner of thinking that discourages asking further questions to find the answers to the mysteries that remain.

I agree wholeheartedly, I just think that there are certain aspects to physicality (namely subjective experience) that science is ill-equipped to investigate. Whenever science encounters subjectivity, it tries to twist it into objective phenomena, because that is where science's strength lies. Unfortunately, this tends to "flatland" things, turning subjective dynamics into objective clockwork devices: emotions become biochemical reactions, experience becomes brainwave patterns, God becomes a hopeful delusion. There's a great book called "The Marriage of Sense and Soul" by Ken Wilbur that goes into this in great detail. Great read, if you ever get the chance.

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

I think stating assertively that there is no "true nature" to be found is exactly the kind of thinking that discourages asking questions. If a person loses interest in these questions, or finds a suitable theory to sustain them in a satisfying way; that is still no reason to say that all people should surrender their curiosity.

No, no, no, you misunderstand. The mindset I advocate promotes the asking of questions, it doesn't discourage it. There being no "true nature of God" means that you get to define God as you see fit, not that you get to laze about and do nothing. The only way to discover your own idea of God is to question, question, question everything! If anything, I think that the belief in definitive answers is what causes people to stop asking questions. That's what organized religion is all about; here's all the answers, here's all the rules, just follow and don't question and you will be "saved".

Of course, anyone who decides to follow an organized religion does so out of their own free choice, which makes it just as perfect as any other decision.

Originally Posted by DulcePoetica

I can't help but notice that you think it is true that there is no truth. And you actually warned me that if I think differently, I might become even more deluded down the road. I don't believe or not believe. I wonder. I am curious.

And I do have a current interpretation of the Divine and its meaning to me. I'm not convinced it's true, it is just what makes the most sense to me with what I have seen and experienced so far. More will be revealed.

And that is perfect. I applaud your open-mindedness.

But I never said there was no truth, I said that truth is subjective, huge difference. We define our truths, and then use those truths to define ourselves. It's all our own creation. IMHO, the entire point of physicality is self-definition, the discovery/creation of our truths and the choices we make based upon them. Truth exists, but it exists inside us, not outside.

CS

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by aKuna

This is true but not just with religion it includes all belief systems, as those who adhere a belief do so because they feel it's right. Even science and medicine are closed to their beliefs as being right. If you hold belief system your most likely to be a bit closed minded because you feel it right. We as a whole need to learn Acceptance of All. this does not mean adhering to all, it only means accepting someones belief is right for them just as our belief is right for us.

You can't tell whether some belief is right for people. Is it beneficial for people to believe their deaths can be predicted with divination?
I don't think acceptance is the right word, it implies just that; accepting something as true. I prefer communication and engagement.

Originally Posted by aKuna

We all know Spirituality is not religion....it may sort of sound like it or even the occult with the work spirits.....
"Spirituality is our relationship with our Spirit Within"
that unseen part of self we call Essence. Language is so limited it is very hard to speak spiritually without making it sound like some belief system. Very fine line here!

There is no difference between spirituality and religion. I often notice this distinction is a way to demonize the 'bad' spirituality by calling it religion, and idolize the 'good' spirituality by calling it spirituality.

Originally Posted by CuriousSnowflake

But I never said there was no truth, I said that truth is subjective, huge difference. We define our truths, and then use those truths to define ourselves. It's all our own creation. IMHO, the entire point of physicality is self-definition, the discovery/creation of our truths and the choices we make based upon them. Truth exists, but it exists inside us, not outside.CS

Beliefs are subjective, beliefs are defined, and are given a 'truth' label. But all of that doesn't change the fact that there is objectivity, it just can't be fully grasped by humans. Believing in flying teapots doesn't make it 'truth'. And the world didn't suddenly became round when we wanted it to be.

Originally Posted by 3dnow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUyJf...eature=related

Hello, 3dnow,

I do strongly disagree with the statement that God is unnecessary or that science, somehow is better or stronger than God. Nothing could be further from the Truth! Without God, our Creator, where would WE be? Where would science be? No where that's where.

I know there's this penchant for trying to outdo God and push Him out of people's lives in this day and age as in yesteryear. But just remember that we are not going to be living here forever. When we make our transition back into spirit and see the Wonders of God and His kingdom many will feel far worse than fools for having ever doubted Him!

Here's my desire that people would make an effort to understand more about God than the things that come and go as in superiority complexes and that which is superficial by comparison to God. For if God had not given man a brain and a mind to think of and develop science, it would truly be non-existent today, so to dare try to eliminate Him over science is not only blasphemous but the worst of ill-thinking endeavors!

Originally Posted by AngelBreeze

Hello, 3dnow,

I do strongly disagree with the statement that God is unnecessary or that science, somehow is better or stronger than God. Nothing could be further from the Truth! Without God, our Creator, where would WE be? Where would science be? No where that's where.

I know there's this penchant for trying to outdo God and push Him out of people's lives in this day and age as in yesteryear. But just remember that we are not going to be living here forever. When we make our transition back into spirit and see the Wonders of God and His kingdom many will feel far worse than fools for having ever doubted Him!

Here's my desire that people would make an effort to understand more about God than the things that come and go as in superiority complexes and that which is superficial by comparison to God. For if God had not given man a brain and a mind to think of and develop science, it would truly be non-existent today, so to dare try to eliminate Him over science is not only blasphemous but the worst of ill-thinking endeavors!

I agree. This is the main cause of all the decadence in this world. Only through the soul can we bring order to the physical world. We live in a world that likes to deny the existence of the soul in favor of pain avoidance. As a result we have a complete lack of discipline in our societies.

[Chrysaetos]

Nice ad consequentiam arguments, AngelBreeze, but it won't wash..

'God' is an idea made up by people to understand the universe. We've been used to seeing stuff created from a young age, from spoons to the wheel,
and over time we got the idea that the earth itself and the universe should have an upper creator as well.

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

I agree. This is the main cause of all the decadence in this world.

What is this ''decadence''..?

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

Only through the soul can we bring order to the physical world.

What is ''the soul''?

Humans always desire order, but forget that destructiveness is part of the universe.

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

We live in a world that likes to deny the existence of the soul in favor of pain avoidance. As a result we have a complete lack of discipline in our societies.

Denial? LoL mate, why don't you define the soul first? And what is this 'discipline' you are thinking about?

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Nice ad consequentiam arguments, AngelBreeze, but it won't wash..

'God' is an idea made up by people to understand the universe. We've been used to seeing stuff created from a young age, from spoons to the wheel,
and over time we got the idea that the earth itself and the universe should have an upper creator as well.
What is this ''decadence''..?What is ''the soul''?

Humans always desire order, but forget that destructiveness is part of the universe. Denial? LoL mate, why don't you define the soul first? And what is this 'discipline' you are thinking about?

The soul is the center of all creation. Establishing and maintenance of harmony should be its goal. A universal belief is system is the optimal way to tie an entire civilization. Disharmony is a mistake that needs to be rectified. We have too many sects in this world, and this only serves to further promote this decadence. Keeping everything ordered and in it proper place at all times should be every civilizations goal.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

The soul is the center of all creation. Establishing and maintenance of harmony should be its goal.

This is too woolly. And previously you said ''through the soul can we..'' already implying a dualism between 'you' and 'soul'.

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

A universal belief is system is the optimal way to tie an entire civilization. Disharmony is a mistake that needs to be rectified. We have too many sects in this world, and this only serves to further promote this decadence.

Many have that desire, and many have tried that. Didn't went well..

Originally Posted by Zeliar791

Keeping everything ordered and in it proper place at all times should be every civilizations goal.

That sounds more like a dictatorship..