Are We In Heaven Now?

[Morpheus]

Morpheus, I can accept that the material world is a reflection of an ultimate spiritual reality: but I don't believe that it is merely an illusion. It's here, we're here.

Jim

Well, involving the Ego, and the, "Survival Instinct", of this illusory and evolved physical, that is the main problem in the world, Jim.
We are presently more and other that what is apparent. This, "apparent", within the construct of space/time" is a facade, which when taken to be the Truth, results in all manner of injustices, and crime.
www.dreamindemon.com

As illustrated well in the popular move, "The Matrix".

Likewise, as WinePenny commented, throughout the scriptures "Stars" have symbolized both angels, and people alike.

www.nderf.org <~

[Left Behind]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Well, involving the Ego, and the, "Survival Instinct", of this illusory and evolved physical, that is the main problem in the world, Jim.
We are presently more and other that what is apparent. This, "apparent", within the construct of space/time" is a facade, which when taken to be the Truth, results in all manner of injustices, and crime.
www.dreamindemon.com

As illustrated well in the popular move, "The Matrix".

Likewise, as WinePenny commented, throughout the scriptures "Stars" have symbolized both angels, and people alike.

www.nderf.org <~

Again, I don't deny that we "are" a lot more than what we see with our material senses. But I still don't agree that the material world, and our material selves, are merely an illusion.

It's like the Platonic idea of the man in the cave, seeing merely shadows of the world outside, and thinking that the shadows are the ultimate reality. The fact that he's wrong doesn't change the fact that the shadows still exist.

Or like the Roman Catholic notion that the bread and wine are transformed into Christ's body and blood. True, in terms of its inner spiritual essence, if you accept this doctrine: but still, the bread and wine still exist, in the material context.

Our innermost reality is not these material bodies: but still, the material bodies exist, and inhabit a real material world.

Funny that you mention The Matrix. I've never seen that movie: though I once met someone who was involved with the production of it. I bought a copy (VHS: to show you how long ago that was! ), but still never watched it.

A friend of mine stopped by a couple of nights ago with several DVD's, and The Matrix was one of them. We watch an occasional movie together in the evening (I'm retired, and recuperating from a broken ankle: he's been laid off: and we're both broke! ). So, I'll give it a look-see.

Jim

It's

I have thought about this more recently. Perhaps we can go to Heaven RIGHT NOW, sort of like Dr. Who can travel to other locations in time, and like how in Stargate, there is sometime travel between different universes. What do you think about that idea?

[psychoslice]

Heaven is NOW, its not found anywhere else, don't wast your time looking for it.

Originally Posted by psychoslice

Heaven is NOW, its not found anywhere else, don't wast your time looking for it.

I can appreciate what you are saying, but for those dying of starvation, caught in wars, watching their children be raped by soldiers, it's probably NOT much like heaven for them, even IF they tried to have the best attitude towards it.

Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and he did say, that if we follow him, then where he his, there we will be. I do agree that there as aspects of heaven right here and right now, for the Kingdom of God is within us.

However, there are also aspects of hell right here and right now, all of which come down to our choices.

As humans change and grow spiritually, and this is reflected in our relationships with God, others, and the planet, I see that there will come a time in the future where a HUGE change will occur. There will be a heaven, a place where there shall be no crying, death, or sorrow. A place of eternal life.

People may poo poo this idea, and I think the reason is because some think that if one believes in a future heaven, then they won't do what they can here and now, to make that heaven. What Jesus taught isn't pie in the sky, he spoke of living according to the principles of the kingdom of heaven now, but he also spoke of a future kingdom that will come.

Hey Ciel. I thought your post was pretty good.
Certainly just stating "Heaven is NOW" does not make heaven on earth. There is so much suffering in the world and (as you say) the people stuck in the middle of it are having a pretty rough time. What we should be doing is going out with that little bit of heaven we have in our hearts and loving and helping whoever we can. That's how we bring a little bit of heaven to earth (IMHO)!

Now, I do think that psychoslice has a point though. Too much theory and not enough practice can make us pretty ineffectual in the world. If we keep running around looking for something better than what we have we miss the chance to make what we have better.

Just a thought. Beans

Originally Posted by hasbean

Hey Ciel. I thought your post was pretty good.
Certainly just stating "Heaven is NOW" does not make heaven on earth. There is so much suffering in the world and (as you say) the people stuck in the middle of it are having a pretty rough time. What we should be doing is going out with that little bit of heaven we have in our hearts and loving and helping whoever we can. That's how we bring a little bit of heaven to earth (IMHO)!

Now, I do think that psychoslice has a point though. Too much theory and not enough practice can make us pretty ineffectual in the world. If we keep running around looking for something better than what we have we miss the chance to make what we have better.

Just a thought. Beans

Hey Hasbean, thanks for your thoughts. I totally agree that with you that physcoslice has a point, in that it is very easy to slip into the 'too much theory, not enough practice' problem that stops us from achieving things.

I guess, while I see the idea of a future heaven as a theory that can make people ineffectual, I do see a lot of danger in the 'heaven is now' theory, because that can, in some ways, make us more ineffectual, as we start to justify our apathy and lack of action.

Really, both thoughts contain truth, and ideally we should look for the good in both approaches. Both can become negative ideas when people stop becoming sincere in trying to change and show love, and grow in truth.

Thanks again for your comments.

I am not in Heaven now but I have been in the doorway and immersed in the Light. I was promised that if I follow the path of Love and Peace I will go to that destiny I glimpsed at the end of my path.

Scripture, IMO, should be read with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[psychoslice]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

I can appreciate what you are saying, but for those dying of starvation, caught in wars, watching their children be raped by soldiers, it's probably NOT much like heaven for them, even IF they tried to have the best attitude towards it.

Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand, and he did say, that if we follow him, then where he his, there we will be. I do agree that there as aspects of heaven right here and right now, for the Kingdom of God is within us.

However, there are also aspects of hell right here and right now, all of which come down to our choices.

As humans change and grow spiritually, and this is reflected in our relationships with God, others, and the planet, I see that there will come a time in the future where a HUGE change will occur. There will be a heaven, a place where there shall be no crying, death, or sorrow. A place of eternal life.

People may poo poo this idea, and I think the reason is because some think that if one believes in a future heaven, then they won't do what they can here and now, to make that heaven. What Jesus taught isn't pie in the sky, he spoke of living according to the principles of the kingdom of heaven now, but he also spoke of a future kingdom that will come.

Who put these people in this situation ?, themselves or other people, people who don't realize that they are in Heaven, who keeps breeding children and letting them come into a world where there is no food for them to eat?, ignorant people that's who, who causes wars?, again ignorant people who don't realize we are all ONE.

I wrote:

I can appreciate what you are saying, but for those dying of starvation, caught in wars, watching their children be raped by soldiers, it's probably NOT much like heaven for them, even IF they tried to have the best attitude towards it.

Pyschoslice wrote:

Who put these people in this situation ?, themselves or other people, people who don't realize that they are in Heaven, who keeps breeding children and letting them come into a world where there is no food for them to eat?, ignorant people that's who, who causes wars?, again ignorant people who don't realize we are all ONE.

You come across rather harsh here, pyschoslice. Sure the poor make mistakes, they have more kids than they should, but the ironic reality is that there IS enough food for them and all their kids, if it wasn't for places like the U.S, U.K, and Oz taking all the resources, raping the land, and exploiting the poor. You can blame it on ignorance, and to a certain degree you're right, but it does sound like you have a convenient doctrine that exhonerates you from responsibility.

Can you see areas of your life where you contribute to the inequality of the world? Can you see any areas of your life where greed stops you from showing love to poor who are dying or starvation? Can you see areas of your life, where you support the system that does all that I have mentioned above? Are their areas of your life where you are ignorant? Perhaps you pay taxes which are used to fund the war machine, to rape the third world in the name of Australia?

The point of my questioning is to show that we are all, to a greater and lesser degree responsible for the plight of the poor. We are all ignorant, and non of us reflect Heaven in it's puriety on this earth at this time.

What I do find interesting, that while you blame the poor for being ignorant and causing their own problems thus not being able to enjoy the 'heaven' that they are supposed to be living in, Jesus actually says that ''heaven belongs to the poor'. He said that those ''who hunger will be filled, those who weep will laugh''. James also says that God will ''lift up the poor''. While there are 'poor' in the west, I think the poor that Jesus seems to be saying will get an express ticket to heaven are those who are dying from starvation, who don't have much they can do to escape their situation, a situation that has been put on them by the greedy profit driven corporations, who give us what we all desire.

And by comparision, Jesus said that 'Woe to you that are rich, for you have recieved your consolation'', ''woe unto you that are full, for you shall hunger''. James said that the ''rich will be made low''.

How much are we prepared to take a stand against all the ignorance that causes suffering and war? Are we prepared to do as Jesus did? Jesus taught that we should ''sell what you own and give the money to the poor''. That seems like a great way to help them, and to challenge our own ignorance and greed in the process. How many of us are willing to do that?

You ask ''who put these people in that situation''...well...in short, YOU and ME! Our desire for comfort, for convenience, for pleasure, for respectability, and for possessions, essentially, for the freedom to do what we want to do.