Antisocial people hidding behind their mask of sanity

Originally Posted by Belle

"There's no such thing as sanity and that's the sanest fact"

Dire straits :-)

I'd accept your view - in a serious vein. Certainly as far as the UK and Europe go, society (as was - the shared orientations and values of its participants) is falling apart what with multiculturalism, the cost of living (now prompting both parents of families to work), the rise of social media distancing people from each other, social engineering, the collapse of religious power, the elevation of the individual, consumerism, etc etc., one wonders how a norm can be established. When the individual is their own norm a definition of sanity is problematical.

As things are, psychologists can ensure new business for a while yet - the crumbling of society gives so much scope for inventing new disorders. Talk about empire building!!

...

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

I came across a really interesting book by Dr. Stanislav Grof titled When the Impossible Happens, one of the numerous books Grof has written, but this one is autobiographical. Grof ws trained as a medical doctor and psychoanalyst in Czechoslovakia during the Iron Curtain days. But one of his mentors was working with lysergic acid diethyl amide, and an initial experience with that immediately converted Grof to a Jungian outlook. From there, he emigrated to the U.S. and went on to explore yoga meditation, meet visiting gurus, try (and then develop) personal growth methods, etc. Eventually he traveled to places to experience other, indigenous cultures - such as ones in Brasil and Australia. I can tell you that Grof - and all of the transpersonalists - are quite different from what your image of a psychologist (and his way of viewing things and working) may be!

I saw a documentary with him. He developped a breathing technique based on a old shamanic practice to access the personal and collective unconscious and to heal wounds.

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Hippiegirl

First of all I want to say that I think you’re absolutely right about that it is important to talk about the subject of Ps and toxic people. Most of the time an encounter with a P is destructive for the person in question, like with your friend. PTSD is a terrible thing as I know from firsthand experience and I wish your friend all the best and hope he will be able to heal from it. I think it is very important to recognize abuse early on so that you can protect yourself from it and walk away in an early stadium.

Having said that, the reason I joined the discussion is because I am the TF girlfriend Randahl was talking about. There are so many things I can say about my personal journey that I don’t know where to start. If you’re interested, feel free to ask questions. I’ll be happy to answer them. I can tell from you’re posts that you’re an open-minded and sensitive person .

I'm positively surprised by where this conversation is going. My primary intention was to share
some informations about psychopathy to prevent people from being duped because i think it is often happening to different degrees. When my friend shared his story with me i started to document myself i realised that most of us may know people who have psychopathic traits without realising it and now i'm sure some people i know at work and some politicians have psychopathic traits.

The thing i want readers to know is that my intention isn't to create anger, hate or revenge but just to made people a little more discerning to avoid unecessary problems and suffering. I've noticed often that people react to P as if they were the nicest guy-girl in the world.

So with that i would be very interested to hear about your story to the degree to what you're willing to share. It must be a beautiful thing for a person when they choose the light over the dark, and to meet their TF. It must be a beautiful think for someone to help another reaching the light. I think it's quite rare to be the witness of such a transformation.

[Randahl]

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

I'm positively surprised by where this conversation is going. My primary intention was to share
some informations about psychopathy to prevent people from being duped because i think it is often happening to different degrees. When my friend shared his story with me i started to document myself i realised that most of us may know people who have psychopathic traits without realising it and now i'm sure some people i know at work and some politicians have psychopathic traits.

The thing i want readers to know is that my intention isn't to create anger, hate or revenge but just to made people a little more discerning to avoid unecessary problems and suffering. I've noticed often that people react to P as if they were the nicest guy-girl in the world.

So with that i would be very interested to hear about your story to the degree to what you're willing to share. It must be a beautiful thing for a person when they choose the light over the dark, and to meet their TF. It must be a beautiful think for someone to help another reaching the light. I think it's quite rare to be the witness of such a transformation.

I checked out those links you showed me previously. And yes, that quite an accurate description I would say, and that's pretty much exactly how all my previous romantic relationships have been. The articles however were all written from the a victim point of view and it misses on some fundamental things when it comes to the assumptions of the motivations behind the manipulation.

And from the outside it can probably look like that is what I'm doing again now to "Hippiegirl" (lol, feels weird to call her that. I have many nicknames for her, but hippiegirl isn't one of them). And that was obviously a source of distrust and paranoia in the beginning. But we've managed to deal with it cause a) she approached me, b) I've been completely open about that I'm a P from the start (she had already read my numerous posts about it). c) I will continuously, I still am, giving her an environment where I allow her to as suspicious or paranoid as she has to without me becoming defensive or upset. That's all I can do, just be solid and stable over time. I let her have acces to everything and will answer anything truthfully. Trust isn't just something to be earned, but also maintained. Besides, I couldn't lie to her, she just knows what I feel/think anyway. It's actually a relief for me; there's never a thought of lying cause I know it wouldn't be possible and I want to be loved for what I am, not just a selected facade I choose to show. Lying to her would ruin everything for me even if it was never found out.

Our situation is probably extremely rare tho. I would not recommend going into a relationship with a P in hopes of changing them or being able to connect with them. That's going to be a disaster! Had she been anyone else I would've been treating her just like previous partners, idealizing->devalue-->discard. Well, I wouldn't even have bothered with her in the first place cause she's geographically too far away to be worth going after if it was just for carnal/narcissistic/monetary reasons.
It's not impossible to have a relationship with a P even if you're not TFs, but extremely difficult. You would need a mindset that accepts and tolerate that whatever they do it is not personal, that they will never change, they will never connect with you (or your children) the way you do, now and then horrible things will happen. But if you can still love and give space to that person to just be, you could be an important and treasures individual receiving deep respect and care. Of course you would have to keep that up constantly forever. Otherwise you'll find yourself in the devaluation phase in the blink of an eye. So, not impossible, but not really realistic unless you really are an especially caring individual.

[Mused]

I spent a couple years in a psychology forum and a psychopath section. It was fun for a while, until it got boring.

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

I came across a really interesting book by Dr. Stanislav Grof titled When the Impossible Happens, one of the numerous books Grof has written, but this one is autobiographical. Grof ws trained as a medical doctor and psychoanalyst in Czechoslovakia during the Iron Curtain days. But one of his mentors was working with lysergic acid diethyl amide, and an initial experience with that immediately converted Grof to a Jungian outlook. From there, he emigrated to the U.S. and went on to explore yoga meditation, meet visiting gurus, try (and then develop) personal growth methods, etc. Eventually he traveled to places to experience other, indigenous cultures - such as ones in Brasil and Australia. I can tell you that Grof - and all of the transpersonalists - are quite different from what your image of a psychologist (and his way of viewing things and working) may be!

One of my favorite authors (and Psychologists)... My favorite books by him:

-The Stormy Search For The Self (co-authored with his wife Christina)
-The Cosmic Game

I'm actually awaiting delivery of another book of his called The Ultimate Journey, which supposed to focus on the subject matter of death/dying....

[Randahl]

Originally Posted by Mused

I spent a couple years in a psychology forum and a psychopath section. It was fun for a while, until it got boring.

That's really contributing and interesting. Please tell us more about you online habits.

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by arnicamontana

I know this isn't going to a very light post, but it's good to be informed to be able to detect toxic people who pretends to be your best friend or lover. Someone i know met someone of this kind and hopefully left soon enough.
One thing to know is there is nothing to do except to leave and go no contact with these antisocial people.

IMO, the first thing to understand is why we attract or are attracted to antisocial folks in the first place and that investigation might take you back to those who conditioned you to be that way - starting with your parents.
Unless you know what makes you "tick", you may go from that relationship to another one just like it or even WORSE!
Your best defense is thorough self understanding and HIGH self respect so you are no longer so vulnerable to antisocial folks or other USERS - including your self.
There is a powerful reason why we get involved with an antisocial type!

[Hippiegirl]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

It’s true that “experimental psychology” (such as Behaviourism) and psychobiology tend to be disinterested in spirituality as we tend to see it and discuss it on SpiritualForums, just as Freud’s psychoanalysis was. Jung was one of the more questing and open-minded because his personal experiences didn’t fit within the boxes. Jung was also a traveler who was interested in the experiences and outlooks of peoples he visited in Africa and in the Native-American communities of the southwestern U.S. He did not “classify and condemn” so much.

Today, psychologists of the “transpersonal” vein are well aware of Jung’s outlook and contributions, but as the decades have unfolded they’ve gone further in various ways. They are definitely interested in spirituality, and not prone to generalization for dogmatic purposes.

Interesting discussion! I have a psychology background myself, but I am not a psychologist by profession. I see it a lot around me that people tend to take either a completely scientific viewpoint where they only focus on the neurobiological component of the problem and not acknowledging there might be a spiritual component too. Or the other way around where people dismiss the neurological side of it and only focusing on the spiritual aspect. For me those 2 viewpoints are not mutually exclusive at all. I see the body as a vehicle or medium or whatever, you need it to move in the physical world. Just as any part of the body can get damaged the brain can get damaged too. Think for instance of people who have a complete personality change after having cerebral hemorrhage, the effect of neurodegenerative diseases of Huntington’s or any form of dementia etc.

I don’t think that every psychological problem stems from the brain, but I think it’s important to not disregard anything. I am for an holistic approach that takes the entire person into account; mind, body, spirit. I don’t think there is something wrong with diagnosing someone per se. A diagnosis is a starting point. A good psychiatrist/psychologist knows this. It becomes a problem when it is used in a too rigid way. For instance when you tell someone he/she can never do X or Y because of this diagnosis or when you just give up on someone because of a diagnosis. That’s the point I tried to make earlier about psychopathy, when I referred to that researcher David Bernstein who approaches the subject in a more optimistic way and books actual progress with these kinds of patients. Also, I see with my own eyes now that such a transformation is indeed possible and I think it is a beautiful thing. It can be a difficult and trying process, but not impossible under the right circumstances. Acknowledging you have a vulnerability for something can help you move beyond it. I think that goes for a lot of disorders; either physical ones or mental ones.

[Hippiegirl]

Originally Posted by jimrich

IMO, the first thing to understand is why we attract or are attracted to antisocial folks in the first place and that investigation might take you back to those who conditioned you to be that way - starting with your parents.
Unless you know what makes you "tick", you may go from that relationship to another one just like it or even WORSE!
Your best defense is thorough self understanding and HIGH self respect so you are no longer so vulnerable to antisocial folks or other USERS - including your self.
There is a powerful reason why we get involved with an antisocial type!

I’m sure you mean well but what you are saying here comes off as victim blaming to be honest. I agree with you that introspection and knowing oneself is really important. But it is not that simple nor a solution for everything.