Is consciousness nondual?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Rah nam

Is consciousness non-dual?

this is correct, and not within the physical (uni)verse

Consciousness is not within the physical universe because consciousness is conscious of the physical universe.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Thoughts and beliefs are the 'end result' of those unconscious process, as is the ego.

It seems to me that inavalan is describing the unconscious processes that you are talking about in more detail.

In addition to what inavalan has said, I will go deeper and say that the unconscious processes that creates the ahamkara and wrong thinking and beliefs and the false sense of self is the conscious and unconscious imagination. It is the same imagination that mistakingly imagines the rope as a snake.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Yep, the face, and the reflection of the face in the mirror are both in reality, so it doesn't really matter.

That's not the point of the analogy. The point is, is your reflection in a mirror you? Is it as real as you?

If you are not in front of the mirror does the reflection exist? If the mirror is not in front of you do you exist?

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That's not the point of the analogy. The point is, is your reflection in a mirror you? Is it as real as you?

If you are not in front of the mirror does the reflection exist? If the mirror is not in front of you do you exist?

I know what the point of the analogy is.

What I don't understand is what the reflection of my face in the mirror is suppose to represent in the analogy.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

What I don't understand is what the reflection of my face in the mirror is suppose to represent in the analogy.

Face = Atman, Brahman, Chit, Consciousness, Source, etc...
Reflection = mind-body complex

Applied to the Water/wave analog:

A wave is Water through and through and nothing other than Water. Water is not a wave.

Water = Face
wave = reflection

Water/Face has intrinsic existence.
wave/reflection has extrinsic existence.

The reflection only exists by the virtue of Face. Face exists independent of reflection. The wave only exists by the virtue of Water. Water exists independent of wave.

Hi....

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Face = Atman, Brahman, Chit, Consciousness, Source, etc...
Reflection = mind-body complex

Nope.

Face = Atman
Mirror = Chit, Consciousness, Ground, Cosmic Egg
Reflection = 5 sheaths
Movement in Reflection = Play of Gunas

The highest experience one can ever get is combination of these 3 (Atman - Sat - Face, Consciousness - Chit - Mirror, Bliss - Ananda - True Rupa/Reflection). :-)

All these are none other than Brahman, but truly Brahman - none of these.

Originally Posted by O K Viswanath

Mirror = Chit, Consciousness, Ground, Cosmic Egg

As I understand mirror = nature.

From the Advaita perspective and speaking of Absolute reality there is no distinction between Atman, Brahman, Chit (Consciousness). Even more Absolute is nature (Maya) is none other than That with name and form superimposed. That superimposition is the delusion.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Even more Absolute is nature (Maya) is none other than That with name and form superimposed. That superimposition is the delusion.

True. But, I would not say a delusion. Because, there is no delusion for Atman. The Superimposition, Advaita call it "Ignorance/Maya/Delusion/whatever", but I feel Ignorance is there only for Mind and not for Atman. If Mind itself a form and come out of "Ignorance/etc.", what is really ignorant before mind came?

The Advaitin tried to give "reason" as "Ignorance/Delusion/Maya" (like Dvaitins give reason as Play/Leela) for that emergence of causal body, but which cannot be reasoned out why. No one can, even God in causal Body also might not reason out.

Edit - If the causal Body - Ishwara - God himself is all knower, and if Advaitin never reject those, then how might God/Ishwara would have went ignorant? Maya is powerful than Ishwara? Even God cannot aware of Maya at the first Instance? What kind of all-knower is Ishwara?
While dwelling in this view, I see Advaitin also fail to clearly express how come something can emerge from causal body/Ishwara, in the reason/name as "Ignorance/Delusion/Maya". Atman and Ishwara can never go Ignorant, whereas Ishwara is all-knower but Atman is not bound to Knowledge neither Ignorance.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

From the Advaita perspective and speaking of Absolute reality there is no distinction between Atman, Brahman, Chit (Consciousness).

Yup, Mirror is Also Nature, and that's why absolute nature of Atman is not Consciousness/Mirror/Chit/Pond. Calling Atman's True Reality as Consciousness is itself not resonate with me in reading the POV of Vedanta.

But, if you want to stick to the Advaitic perspective, most welcome, sure that liberation happens. I many times forget that, I should post about Vedanta, not in Non-Duality or Advaitin thread but in "Your Space", as the view I have from Vedanta is 90% Advaitin but 10% different, where the 10% might arise conflict, so I have to stop expressing here.

Thank you.

BYE.

[saurab]

Originally Posted by Ewwerrin

Is consciousness non-dual? And if it is, how come there exists only a becoming in my consciousness?
Why is my consciousness eternally changing?
Even acknowledging "I am aware of the change, and I am not this change." It changes my consciousness... If it is absolute. Unchanging.

the divine spark in Man is unchanging. consciousness, both in it's quality and it's content, is changing. But on awakening the quality of consciousness becomes unchanging. BUT the content of consciousness never becomes unchanging even for a Buddha or a Ramana. You are confusing the quality or structure of consciousness with the content of consciousness.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by O K Viswanath

If the causal Body - Ishwara - God himself is all knower, and if Advaitin never reject those, then how might God/Ishwara would have went ignorant? Maya is powerful than Ishwara? Even God cannot aware of Maya at the first Instance? What kind of all-knower is Ishwara?
While dwelling in this view, I see Advaitin also fail to clearly express how come something can emerge from causal body/Ishwara, in the reason/name as "Ignorance/Delusion/Maya".

That is the beauty of the Creation. Everyone feels his/her rules are the best known ultimate truths. At the gross level your logic and question is right. But that far only. On detailed minute subtle scrutiny it does not hold water.

Getting and letting the fun of play/sports / game/ maya with all its defeats / victories/ excitement/judgement / cheers/pains / excitement / pride / camaraderie etc be felt by all with reasonable freedom to make most of it - is the prime goal of His creation. The spiritual challenge is to feel the blissful moments and discover the purpose of the play also. Now causal Body - Ishwara - God looking ignorant is all part of play. In play everyone including director/composer/producer everyone has to go by the rules of the book if they want to part of it.

Doctrine of Ishwara - God in human flesh is based on Avtar doctrine which means literally means to descend from higher seat to lower one- From the one universal all powerful omnipresent omniscient to limited form with all its weaknesses and limitations. As part of the play if He has all kinds of roles in his play called life , why He in His own right can not have a role for Himself in human flesh. There is absolutely no stopping to Him. If u compare it with other religions and beliefs, they too have similar stuff . They too establish human in flesh having divine role with the unlimited in the form of Son, messenger, enlightened one etc based on some such plain belief only(which very intelligent like u can call arbitrary belief but it is not as such).

If u see any play / drama / sports without understanding the intricacies of it, you will always see some weirdness in it. e.g. I in India with pre-dominant sport as cricket and very little knowledge of Football/Soccur , start questioning football and seeing weirdness in people running behind a ball and hitting it with foot or head only without touching hand to it, the wierdness is in me and not in the sport.

I understand intelligent you may not be satisfied with this explanation and that's perfectly ok for me.