The Eightfold Path - The Fourth Noble Truth

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think that being was Gautama for one rebirth of thousands... so maybe 7 +2500! After all those lives the being was ready to see clearly in one rebirth.

Exactly.
So Life itself should lead a person to see clearly.No worries.

Originally Posted by sky

And ' Non Buddhists ' . I personally think the FNT and the NEP are 'Antidotes ' for the three Poisons......

FNT and NEP from the Buddhist perspective are very NEW to me.
Many of the concepts and teachings of FNT and NEP I have considered and applied in my Life from other teachings.
I do trip on much of the Buddhist language but am slowly deciphering much of it.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

... and those 7 years were INTENSE.

How many people pursue Nirvana with the intensity of the Buddha?

This we may never know.
Whole Hearted dedication to a path should teach much.
I've not intensely pursued Buddhism, I am only looking around.
I have semi-intensely followed a path in a Native American tradition and am still following that path.
It must be experienced to be known.
Which I assume is the same in Buddhism.

[Gem]

In the initial meditation you typically sit there and feel yourself breathing, but in the same manner that a wood turner pays attention to the precision of his work. That's called 'ardent awareness' because more than just being aware or simply knowing "I'm taking a long breath" one pays very close attention to how it feels in detail. This changes the approach from trying to hold attention on the object to investigating the object very closely so that you become conscious of how it feels at the subtlest and most refined level.

That's the reason the wood turner story is included to illustrate not only the technique of breath awareness, but the manner in which you pay close attention.

Resolving distraction then becomes not you will to keep the attention on the object, but because you are so intent on feeling it in minute detail, your whole attention is necessary. Therefore, do not try to keep attention on the object. Instead, start investigating the subtle nuances and details of the object as closely as you can.

In many meditation techniques, you are given a crude object, or an object so large you can't hone in on the detail. Anyone can see Saturn in the sky, but you get binoculars you see it a bit bigger with a bit more detail, you get the telescope, you start to see what it's like, you get the radio telescope and you see the rings and moons there, you get the space craft and you can hone in one one moon, one mountain on the moon, one rock on the mountain, and finally, one grain of dust on the rock. If you do not, Saturn is always a little dot on the sky. You never know anything more.

Similarly, the wood turner starts with a lump of wood, then crudely fashions a cylinder, then carves a basic shape, then carves the pattern outline, then closes in on the details and finally tends to the finest intricacies.

In your naked eye, Saturn seems very small and nondescript, but you look closer you notice there are more details, so look at the detail and notice it, too, has more detail, and that detail in turn has even more. In the end you realise Saturn is very large generally, but is made of very small incredibly intricate details.

In my practice I feel the breath upon the cleft of my top lip, an area about the size of a pea, but if I look closely to find a detail, and hone on it, the peas sized area would become larger as if telescoped, and my new area would be pea sized (like a Saturn moon), then that new pea would have smaller content to look at. Then, my actual object shrunk to pin head size like a dot on the cleft of my lip, but even that has smaller aspects to observe microscopically. Belly breath etc simply doesn't enable the same level of refinement. This is why I suggest the nose area is optimal for breath meditation; not because I say so, but because of the reasons I explain.

Your typical meditation teacher will not give you an intricate object such as I describe. It 'works for you' in the sense it goes to the binocular level of perception, but it doesn't facilitate a microscopic level. Hence the object needs to consist of the finest possible refinement. There are only 2 such objects pertaining to the senses. The sound in your head and the feelings in your body. The 'internal objects'.

The Buddhist approach is the feelings (vedana) for two main reason: 1) All of the senses including the thought sense work through the nerves or vibrations creating feelings and; 2) Feelings are therefore at the nexus of suffering regarding the senses.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

Many of the concepts and teachings of FNT and NEP I have considered and applied in my Life from other teachings.

One thing we all have in common Universally is the desire to be free from suffering

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Buddha's teachings are brilliant exactly as originally taught.

No one knows what he was teaching or how anyone is supposed to approach meditation as outlined in anapanna and satipathana suttas, but I know there is more to it that what is said in the old book. Since no one was there to listen to Buddha himself, no one knows how the teachings were actually originally taught. We get some second hand news much like any other religion. At my school they claim to have preserved the teachings in their purest form and say the way we are trained in meditation is exactly as Buddha taught it. There is supposedly a direct lineage going back to Buddha himself, and the teaching has remained pristine being passed continuously to the present day without blemish. No one has any reason to believe that. Indeed it is highly unlikely and I just don't see how anyone could honestly make that claim. It's amazing that our high ups are so wise, yet so misguided to believe that they know precisely how Buddha taught it.

[sky]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

It must be experienced to be known.
Which I assume is the same in Buddhism.

Yes definitely, direct knowing of the human mind imo is the whole purpose of The Buddha’s teachings....

[Still_Waters]

QUOTE 466 EXCERPT:

Originally Posted by Gem

Since no one was there to listen to Buddha himself, no one knows how the teachings were actually originally taught. We get some second hand news much like any other religion.

It's amazing that our high ups are so wise, yet so misguided to believe that they know precisely how Buddha taught it.

I concur with you completely that "no one (really) knows how the teachings were originally taught". However, the guidelines that have been handed down ("second hand news much like any other religion") nonetheless provide awesome guidelines (IMHO) on the foundations of mindfulness.

When I was in India, I went to Sarnath where Deer Park is located and just sat in meditation at the spot where Buddha reportedly gave his first sermon on the Four Noble Truths. It almost felt as if one was sitting in the presence of the Buddha there. At that time, it was not commercialized and there was virtually no one there except a few monks who were giving discourses on what they knew about the Buddha's teachings.

It was a very charged atmosphere there and the energy was indescribable as I immediately was immersed in meditation as I sat there. I had not expected that.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

QUOTE 466 EXCERPT

It was a very charged atmosphere there and the energy was indescribable as I immediately was immersed in meditation as I sat there. I had not expected that.

It's inspiring when you can personally feel energy in various places especially when it's unexpected. One thing we do know is that dharma is 'Authentic' regardless of who used it in their Teachings... As you noted it is impossible to be 100% certain what Teachings actually came directly from The Buddha but they definitely came from someone who was 'Awake' and are of benefit to all and that's all that matters, imo.....

Does this phrase fit into the 8 fold path and or 4 N. truths?
I'm sure it does but just curious.
"If I don't mind it don't matter."