Are you a real person sat behind a computer?

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Busby

Rather surprised that you say that when science is convinced that the brain alone is the creative element. In other words the brain (science says) creates consciousness.

Actually it's observation that creates (causes other) reality. The brain is and acts as the observer. Even seen when we are talking about the 5 senses, such as sight, touch, smell, etc. These are the first observation and it is the fist observation that takes place that creates. We are always catching up to that. Observation collapses the wave. The wave has already collapsed with and because of the senses. It really isn't consciousness that create but the 5 senses which draws attention to itself. The senses are the observation made just as objects in universe do. They actual take and holding attention that reinforce reality, an actual limit (new) to creating, stopping it like looking into the past point. It is important to realize we observed and we see that. So yes, if you think about it is the brain that collapses the wave. We have already observed not knowing we did. Most think they are always observing not realizing the observation has already been (quietly) made.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hey there Moonie

According to Jung the ego has a couple of 'roles', one of them is to act as a kind of 'gateway' to filter out extraneous information, otherwise we'd be too overwhelmed by it all. The unconscious takes care of the majority of it - some 90-95% - and the ego becomes conscious of the rest. This is where 'I' rears its ugly head. But what happens before that? Who or what is there when not thinking about it, when going beyond/underneath the thought of thought?

That's the question though. Bashar said that if we are conscious of something it must exist, because it cannot enter our consciousness if it doesn't exist. If I stopped existing would what used to be 'I' to you suddenly wink out of your consciousness?

We know from psychology that what we are conscious of is the 'end result' of a framework of unconscious processes, and if one of those processes was altered then our perceptions of reality change. Mine certainly did and if people are as self-ware as they'd like to think they are then it's true for them too. Reading posts and 'digesting' what is said in them does influence people's realities, and 'I' becomes 'a little bit me, a little bit you'. I stole that from the Monkees, by the way.

So what am I, chopped liver? And you too? Here we are, interacting so doesn't that mean it's relevant to each other as well?

We can't become conscious of something/someone unless it exists so the existence of that something is fundamental. What we do is help to define how it exists.

Reality is formed by any number of aspects of 'you', and if you want a Spiritual perspective then the Eightfold Path covers quite a bit of that ground, and there are parallels between that and psychology. The ancients didn't use the word 'psychology' because they didn't see any difference between that and religion/philosophy.

External reality exists, otherwise we wouldn't be able to park our backsides and we can't breathe illusory air. So 'something' is 'out there' beyond our own little bubble of reality.

Reality is based on perception on the surface at least, but perception has it's unconscious frameworks. How we treat people is one factor but how other people perceive it is the deciding factor, and obviously that's relative to their reality. In the interaction we create each other, to a greater or lesser degree. Should I be wary of that in our interaction? Asking for a friend.


Are you a samurai dreaming you are a butterfly or are you a butterfly dreaming you are a butterfly?

You think you exist but what if you are no thing? Who or what is beyond the thought that you exist. who are what is doing the expressing - is it really 'you' or something that you call you?

There's a saying around here - "No sense, no feeling." It means that you can't feel if there is nothing to feel it, 'it' being the cold, compassion, etc...

I sense and feel you exist, I'm just not certain what that 'you' is and that's the part that's intriguing.

Hey Greenslade,

The ego as I understand is the identity of I. What defines I is compilation of many factors such as genetic makeup, life experience, abilities to process information, and most likely others stuff mixed in there.

To ask who is this I is to ask which I is being referred to. The Human being, the essence, what I is thought to be. Which all forms I existing as I exist at the moment.

Underneath the thoughts is still the physical and energetic (spirit if you like) present. Just not attempting to interpret, analyze, or trying to.... just present.
What you or anyone else may make of this I is up to others, you, and anyone else who may be interested.

Yes, our interactions do influence my sense of reality. At times may depend how interested I am and how I process the information exchange may influence how the reality is formed.

So in this way is relevant to me. Yes you as well, but in your own way. It all blends together, but there is the individual aspect that adds it own flavor to the mix. At times it is personal, other times not so much. All happening at once and forming reality(ies).

The interesting question is; Is it all mental or just a by product (so to speak) of what manifests and is formed. Meaning reality itself.

Yes takes something/someone to be there/exist in order to form some sense of reality. Otherwise nothing to reflect or be reflected back to observe, think about, and experience. Thus the question in regards to reality has no center/place to form and be noticed and experienced.

I am me, myself, and I. I am human and spirit. I am life unfolding and a participate with in this. I am what others create me to be. All exist as formed with in the consciousness of one and all. A mouth-full I know, but really can not fully define I/me. Some aspects remain pretty consistent, while other aspects change a bit.

It is a little bit me and a little bit you.... too. These add to the mix and blend. As does everything else.

No worries for me with the interactions.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hey Greenslade,

The ego as I understand is the identity of I. What defines I is compilation of many factors such as genetic makeup, life experience, abilities to process information, and most likely others stuff mixed in there.

To ask who is this I is to ask which I is being referred to. The Human being, the essence, what I is thought to be. Which all forms I existing as I exist at the moment.

:

Hey MG ..

Hope your good ..

The whole thing about all this boils down fundamentally to awareness of I AM and in that alone brings with it a sense of self and self identity to varying degrees.

Now the person hood or the matter of whether we believe or not in that there is a real person tying this post or not depends on many things .

One must consider what a person constitutes and reflects so to speak and what is real and what isn't ..

What I see often is a complete muddle of things but when key questions are answered truthfully one cannot deny there very self because it's here and now and debating the point of being a person or not lol .

I heard Ramana speak along similar lines once where he would say that the problem with the persona is that it's the person when believed to be a separate person is where the problems lie .

There has to be a combination of Self . Consciousness becomes awareness in the presence of an object, which is identified as a person .

Is that real or not real, it depends on how one wants to define that of course and each is welcome to their own thoughts on this, but, and there's always a butt lol, because when one follows a line of questioning there can really only be one answer regarding the authentic self that is individualised and real .



x daz x

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey MG ..

Hope your good ..

The whole thing about all this boils down fundamentally to awareness of I AM and in that alone brings with it a sense of self and self identity to varying degrees.

Now the person hood or the matter of whether we believe or not in that there is a real person tying this post or not depends on many things .

One must consider what a person constitutes and reflects so to speak and what is real and what isn't ..

What I see often is a complete muddle of things but when key questions are answered truthfully one cannot deny there very self because it's here and now and debating the point of being a person or not lol .

I heard Ramana speak along similar lines once where he would say that the problem with the persona is that it's the person when believed to be a separate person is where the problems lie .

There has to be a combination of Self . Consciousness becomes awareness in the presence of an object, which is identified as a person .

Is that real or not real, it depends on how one wants to define that of course and each is welcome to their own thoughts on this, but, and there's always a butt lol, because when one follows a line of questioning there can really only be one answer regarding the authentic self that is individualised and real .



x daz x

Hi daz,

Doing alright, thanks.

Hope you are doing well.

For me when being asked; Is there a real person behind/in front of this computer? Can answer sure is, but will another believe it?

I can have all the sense of myself and awareness of this self. Can express and have expressed my insights and view points, but (yup there’s a but, lol), what does it mean to another?

What forms the reality of someone being there and real?

This to me takes an interaction of sorts. With in the interaction an image, idea, feeling seems to form which may or may not indicate that there is somebody there. An awareness of the other being.

Upon forums there are words. With in the words there is an energy and reflection of the person there. Even if just a smidgen, there is something with in the words that reflect us, the individual, the self. Which identifies the person.

The various posts form sub-forums and the various sub-forums create a site to visit.

This in a way reflects interactions and their impacts in general. Reflects how it all blends into the consciousness (if viewed using a site as a metaphor).

Which includes you, me/I, us, them, individuals, and groups. Which for me influences the sense I am, I exist, I am real. Nothing far out, it is just reflected out and back.

So, yes not separate, just don’t pay attention all the time as to how much we influence one another and how far the ripples go out.

Which reflects the parts/individuals with in and of the whole/All.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hey Greenslade,

The ego as I understand is the identity of I. What defines I is compilation of many factors such as genetic makeup, life experience, abilities to process information, and most likely others stuff mixed in there.

To ask who is this I is to ask which I is being referred to. The Human being, the essence, what I is thought to be. Which all forms I existing as I exist at the moment.

Underneath the thoughts is still the physical and energetic (spirit if you like) present. Just not attempting to interpret, analyze, or trying to.... just present.
What you or anyone else may make of this I is up to others, you, and anyone else who may be interested.

Yes, our interactions do influence my sense of reality. At times may depend how interested I am and how I process the information exchange may influence how the reality is formed.

So in this way is relevant to me. Yes you as well, but in your own way. It all blends together, but there is the individual aspect that adds it own flavor to the mix. At times it is personal, other times not so much. All happening at once and forming reality(ies).

The interesting question is; Is it all mental or just a by product (so to speak) of what manifests and is formed. Meaning reality itself.

Yes takes something/someone to be there/exist in order to form some sense of reality. Otherwise nothing to reflect or be reflected back to observe, think about, and experience. Thus the question in regards to reality has no center/place to form and be noticed and experienced.

I am me, myself, and I. I am human and spirit. I am life unfolding and a participate with in this. I am what others create me to be. All exist as formed with in the consciousness of one and all. A mouth-full I know, but really can not fully define I/me. Some aspects remain pretty consistent, while other aspects change a bit.

It is a little bit me and a little bit you.... too. These add to the mix and blend. As does everything else.

No worries for me with the interactions.

Hi there Moonie

One of the reasons I tool this 'Spiritual Journey' was because I wanted to know what made me tick, I guess something inside was looking for something more authentic. Long story short, I've had periods in my Life when this 'I' and all my perceptions of it have been challenged, I guess be careful what you wish for after all. Spiritually, a few years ago I want through what I took to be 'Ascension symptoms', at the time there was a wave of it and I and a few others seemed to get caught up in the waves. I also had a car accident, after which I had cognitive behaviour therapy. That involved dismantling the unconscious processes that are the mainstay of perceptual reality. That was scary, enlightening and harrowing.

Now I don't know what 'I' is for sure. I've spent time with Jung because psychology has more to with Spirituality than Spirituality has, and psychology is the framework of reality. Spirituality is the "What?" and psychology is the "How?"

I guess that answers your question of is it mental or just a by-product. My therapy showed me that it is a by-product and until we make the unconscious conscious, we are what the stuff that spits out that by-product says we are. That's what gives us "A sense of I am," which is what Jung says the ego is. The good thing that it's not just mental, it's the sum total of all the aspects that have a part to play in how we perceive reality and how we respond to that.

So everything that you think you are and how you define yourself is ego - the Jungian ego and not the swear-word ego. And long story short it's your definitions that create your reality.

But what is under the definitions? The definitions and the reasons you have them don't come from the ether they come from somewhere 'inside', and when you start to explore those you find a different 'you' begins to emerge. Something that is

In Gestalt Reality the whole is not just greater than the sum of its parts, it's a whole new being.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

Doing alright, thanks.

Hope you are doing well.

For me when being asked; Is there a real person behind/in front of this computer? Can answer sure is, but will another believe it?

I can have all the sense of myself and awareness of this self. Can express and have expressed my insights and view points, but (yup there’s a but, lol), what does it mean to another?

What forms the reality of someone being there and real?

Hey, Yer, I am well cheers,

What you said above is clearly self evident isn't it and most conscious aware individual peeps will say the same but for some reason or another there are those that will deny this very sense of self awareness and proclaim to be a dream character or not even here at all ..

It's futile in many ways at times when we try and prove to another something in which there is ignorance or denial but what makes you raise an eyebrow or two if you can manage that is when a peep declares that no one is here and yet they will stand there and argue that point lol .

You will even have teachers writing books for other's to read when they don't believe there are other's .

Peeps have to have a foundation that mirrors not only their supposed beliefs but also their behaviour and in these instances they rarely match .

Dream characters end up proclaiming the truth about things when dream characters cannot know anything, realise anything, speak about anything, experience anything.



x dazzle x

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Moonie

One of the reasons I tool this 'Spiritual Journey' was because I wanted to know what made me tick, I guess something inside was looking for something more authentic. Long story short, I've had periods in my Life when this 'I' and all my perceptions of it have been challenged, I guess be careful what you wish for after all. Spiritually, a few years ago I want through what I took to be 'Ascension symptoms', at the time there was a wave of it and I and a few others seemed to get caught up in the waves. I also had a car accident, after which I had cognitive behaviour therapy. That involved dismantling the unconscious processes that are the mainstay of perceptual reality. That was scary, enlightening and harrowing.

Now I don't know what 'I' is for sure. I've spent time with Jung because psychology has more to with Spirituality than Spirituality has, and psychology is the framework of reality. Spirituality is the "What?" and psychology is the "How?"

I guess that answers your question of is it mental or just a by-product. My therapy showed me that it is a by-product and until we make the unconscious conscious, we are what the stuff that spits out that by-product says we are. That's what gives us "A sense of I am," which is what Jung says the ego is. The good thing that it's not just mental, it's the sum total of all the aspects that have a part to play in how we perceive reality and how we respond to that.

So everything that you think you are and how you define yourself is ego - the Jungian ego and not the swear-word ego. And long story short it's your definitions that create your reality.

But what is under the definitions? The definitions and the reasons you have them don't come from the ether they come from somewhere 'inside', and when you start to explore those you find a different 'you' begins to emerge. Something that is

In Gestalt Reality the whole is not just greater than the sum of its parts, it's a whole new being.

Hey Greenslade,

I in a way just fell into exploring what the journey is all about. What came to me and continues to unfold are patterns and habits. Not only with in myself, but with in others and nature itself.

These patterns seem to reflect the connections that are there with in myself, others, and what life may bring.

I have taken, perhaps, the “hard’ way in regards to figuring it out on my own, but really not on my own have many who came and continue to come into life and point things out.

Yes, a little bit of psychology, little bit of spirituality, and a little bit of what may come.

Does take recognizing and owning up to what is mine and what is for others.
Which takes looking deeper with in myself when able and willing to take those steps.

The unconscious seems to hold those habits that have been formed by what one has been conditioned to believe and what may have passed down by generations after generations of blending and mixing.

These influence how I may process and interpret what is considered and viewed as being real. Also form a sense of reality. My mental abilities, my physical abilities, and my spiritual intakes. All this laying within what is conscious and what may be beneath the surface (unconscious)

It is interesting and at times have to eat a portion of humble pie. It is a work in progress and the way life goes.

There is also that which may be with in humans that kicks in when faced with situations that are purely just surviving and getting through the experience. Where it seems, to me, to go on auto pilot and when the dust settles wonder what the heck happened.

Yes, it is how we respond to what life may bring and even in these types of exchanges that seem to direct the course offered and direction the journey takes.

The whys may help the mind/ego understand a bit better. What happens when this does not happen fully? For me it is adjusting the self as best can be done at present. Sometimes the answer(s) comes later, sometimes may still wonder. That is what makes it interesting, isn’t it?

The way I am looking at it at present is that it is not a new me being, but becoming more and more aware of what I am being and the potentials of what I can become. As far as being here is concerned.

Another part of me says I am and always have been being, now go out and live.

[GlitterRose]

Am I a real person?

I think so.

That's the best answer I can give.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey, Yer, I am well cheers,

What you said above is clearly self evident isn't it and most conscious aware individual peeps will say the same but for some reason or another there are those that will deny this very sense of self awareness and proclaim to be a dream character or not even here at all ..

It's futile in many ways at times when we try and prove to another something in which there is ignorance or denial but what makes you raise an eyebrow or two if you can manage that is when a peep declares that no one is here and yet they will stand there and argue that point lol .

You will even have teachers writing books for other's to read when they don't believe there are other's .

Peeps have to have a foundation that mirrors not only their supposed beliefs but also their behaviour and in these instances they rarely match .

Dream characters end up proclaiming the truth about things when dream characters cannot know anything, realise anything, speak about anything, experience anything.



x dazzle x

Hi daz,

Everyone has their own take on it all.

The interactions here strongly indicate there is someone there.

Whether viewed as a “dream” or not does release me from what I am responsible for and the results that may unfold.

What is one trying to “prove”? If I don’t agree or understand and visa versa, then yes pretty futile.

That is why my approach is to just enjoy the exchanges.

What another may believe or even know is cool with me if no harm is intended.

Some things are simply not in my interest or may understand better later down the road.

Yes, there are still interactions going on, whether dreaming or not.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi daz,

Everyone has their own take on it all.

The interactions here strongly indicate there is someone there.

Whether viewed as a “dream” or not does release me from what I am responsible for and the results that may unfold.

What is one trying to “prove”? If I don’t agree or understand and visa versa, then yes pretty futile.

That is why my approach is to just enjoy the exchanges.

What another may believe or even know is cool with me if no harm is intended.

Some things are simply not in my interest or may understand better later down the road.

Yes, there are still interactions going on, whether dreaming or not.

Yep for sure, it's undeniable even though denial is present for some, but what are the implications for what is dreamy and unreal and what isn't . This is the self measurable foundation that cannot be ignored butt time and time again it is .

At times it is mentioned that the dream character rises above the dream or the dream character wakes up, but alas it's not understood that dream characters can never sleep or awaken, be in denial or ignorant of anything .

This is the whole crux of the matter where foundations are clearly needed and are rarely adhered to .

In regards to what other's believe, you're right, it's cool, but it depends on their beliefs and how they behave in relation to them when expressing themselves onto other's .

If I really didn't believe I was a real person and I had realised as such, I wouldn't stand my ground and say what I say, or do anything that reflects the world being anything other than a dream or a figment of my imagination where my family members are just appearances with no substance to them .


x daz x