Satan Doesn't Exist

Originally Posted by movingalways

Before I expand on my answer, do you want to be free of beliefs during awake time and dreaming time?

Depends on how we define "you" (or I, me, us).

From the perspective of mind that would seem the thing to do. From the perspective of That which is aware of mind It's already free. Belief doesn't touch That. That illumines belief.

You know when you believe. You know when you disbelieve. You know when you neither believe nor disbelieve. I'm interested in the commonality of experience. That which illumines knowing of experience. That is unchanging, untouched and without limit. Vast.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by movingalways

Lol, I wrote my original post thinking the quote was yours and that I was speaking directly to you, but it wasn't so I deleted the content

Thanks ! Joe Baudelaire has a certain ring about it ! Yep I have heard the same said about conceptual thought by a pretty spiritually enlightened guy,
that the mind identity will fight tooth and claw till the end ! Based upon this and experience I deviated a bit from that idea and thought nah the ego is just a survival
mechanism inbuilt hardwired, animalistic, instinctual and stock you cannot get anywhere trying to kill it off ... it will surrender sometime of it's own accord. Those are
probably my ideas atm but i have started to meditate again so we will see if they change or how those ideas are changed etc. Thanks for the inspiration.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by movingalways

A question for Joe Mc: How is thinking about Satan in any context beneficial either to your mental or to your spiritual well being?

Thanks for the question its very open honest and deep. but where do you begin with such a question ? I don't think it is that useful at all to be thinking
about Satan as a concept or person etc. etc.. I was just fascinated by how ignorance, delusion, Maya, self, centeredness can often hide themselves well from
lets call him the seeker. People often use the term denial don't they ? Oh he or she is in denial.

There was a guy at a Buddhist Centre one time whom they made the foreman of a stupa building project I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Tibetan Story of Milarepa.
So this guy totally pizzed off everybody, he fought with every single person involved including me. So it would be hard to deny that this chap had an anger problem or something
like that. Man it was venomous and how it didn't come to blows was a miracle. Just lets say he didn't see himself as that angry which I don't think he did but the consensus
was saying differently. So this was probably a good example of denial his ..darkside or perhaps Satanic side hadn't showed itself fully to him in self realisation but to be fair to him he was trying
and beginning to see.

So to him the darkness /Satan didn't exist " The greatest trick that Satan ever played was to convince people that he didn't exist ".


Sorry for the long winded story and I know this is probably not a useful answer so perhaps you have something to say, would like to hear it too.
Below is a post from Jaytruther in inverted commas which I found to be quite inspirational so i thought i'd include that too. ok thanks.




" I like the topic.

Is the mind/thoughts Satan and living with no mind Jesus? Or better said Heaven and Hell.

A simple example....

I suffer somewhat with anxiety, don't know why just had this forever. So I have a job interview coming up and also a massive wedding to attend on the weekend.

The mind has been racing regarding this interview and wedding. All I can say is that the mind pretty much feels like it's attacking me, creating fake scenarios and pretty much putting me down and causing more anxiety and suffering.

I understand that ignoring all this is possible, but that's not taking away the fact the mind is actually a bully. "

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Originally Posted by Joe Mc

about Satan as a concept or person etc. etc..

In this context t's an archetype of the collective unconscious and most people understand what Satan represents. Like angels and many other things.

"All I can say is that the mind pretty much feels like it's attacking me, creating fake scenarios and pretty much putting me down and causing more anxiety and suffering."

Even bullies have reasons for being a bully. Analyse the thoughts and look for reasons you might be thinking them. It's your unconscionscious telling you something.

[movingalways]

Hi Joe C,

In nondual teachings, representative symbols such as "Satan" are rarely used. Instead, the language is usually very direct with the focus on seeing through the delusion of separation. In the case of the angry man at the Buddhist Centre, from the nondual perspective, he obviously was perceiving separation (a duality) between himself and those he was working with. As for his denial, clearly he was spiritually unaware during that time.

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

So this guy totally pizzed off everybody, he fought with every single person involved including me. So it would be hard to deny that this chap had an anger problem or something like that.

It seems to me to be reactive in nature. Defensive. Taking things personally and then lashing out. I'm reminded of the "Second Arrow" parable. https://mindfulnessmeditation.net.au/arrow/

If I look back on my journey it was very agnostic/secular for the first 7 or 8 years. Basically mindfulness meditation and for the sole purpose of less stress, anxiety and reactivity combined with a keen interest in consciousness studies. I had dropped the idea of God and Satan, Heaven and Hell decades earlier. Buddhism Light?

I went through many cycles of meditation/no meditation in month-long blocks and eventually came to realize the stark difference in being and the tricks mind plays. Denial, taking things personally, defensiveness, projection and ultimately expressed negative reaction. It's like the difference between watching a storm at a distance and being caught in the midst of the storm. Being a prisoner of mind or free from mind. The hardest prison to escape is the prison we are not aware we are in.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

In this context t's an archetype of the collective unconscious and most people understand what Satan represents. Like angels and many other things.

Useful way of seeing. The Archetypes which I read about years ago and forgotten about are representations of reality's paradigms, of humanity's mandalas.
I think in the light of this thread I've come to realise that Satan represents ignorance as much as anything else, unknowingness in the negative sense and reactivity perhaps.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by movingalways

In nondual teachings, representative symbols such as "Satan" are rarely used. Instead, the language is usually very direct with the focus on seeing through the delusion of separation

Yes true. As I said just now Satan to me is a symbol of ignorance, unknowing and separation. I just put the question out there about Satan convincing people
that he doesn't exist because it seemed to express better the levels of denial and separation that people find themselves in than Advaita does. Also to explore the idea of 'relative'
reality that Madhyamika Buddhists speak about which contains good bad, hope, losss gain etc. etc. that these are possibly caused by separation from God, from the ground
of being, from reality itself. Although you're right, not in the spelling of my name, but in fact that perhaps the subject of Satan itself shouldn't even be in the non duality section

Ps. just to say something that Jaytruther spoke about here or in another thread. He had a spiritual realisation that didn't seem to fit or match the teachings of Advaita
or although it was the Advaitic teachings which lead him to that experience i think he said ? I too had a similiar experience and had an NDE/OBE which was absolutely overwhelmingly
beautiful and true and sometimes I would find myself trying to match that experience to the spiritual teachings on offer and none of them seeed to resonate
fully at all lol hmmm anyway thought i'd just mention it.

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[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I went through many cycles of meditation/no meditation in month-long blocks and eventually came to realize the stark difference in being and the tricks mind plays.

Buddhism Light very good. Thanks for sharing the parable i'll take a look. Yep i can relate to the tinkering with methodologies and modes of meditation
but I definitely sense that Wisdom came knocking on your door at some point of your journey, excellent stuff !

It's difficult to break the cycle of reactivity, The Irish Milarepa at the Buddhist Centre was a stark example and on show for all to see. Alot more difficult to deal with
on the streets where the rubber meets the road, although as my friend use to say, "You can't hide when you're crippled inside", a John Lennon quotation I believe. I am trying
to deal with the anti social behaviour of an Irish Travelling Family atm ..my goodness it's Samsaric and cyclical but all things are possible and because all things are passing,
change seems to be inevitable. Thanks.

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[movingalways]

Joe Mc: just to say something that Jaytruther spoke about here or in another thread. He had a spiritual realisation that didn't seem to fit or match the teachings of Advaita
or although it was the Advaitic teachings which lead him to that experience i think he said ? I too had a similiar experience and had an NDE/OBE which was absolutely overwhelmingly
beautiful and true and sometimes I would find myself trying to match that experience to the spiritual teachings on offer and none of them seemed to resonate
fully at all lol hmmm anyway thought i'd just mention it.

Are you familiar with the teachings of the three bardos of Tibetan Buddhism, the painful bardo of dying, the luminous bardo of dharmata, and the karmic bardo of becoming? These teachings may match your NDE/OBE experience. According to Tibetan teachings, all experiences, beautiful or not beautiful are naught but the play of the mind and being as such, are to be viewed as an illusion or a dream so that liberation into the luminous bardo of dharmata will occur. Of course "Satan" (as well as every symbol/archetype/myth/metaphor) is also to be considered in the same light of "row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream."

If you are not familiar with the bardo teachings or are familiar and are interested in reading a detailed but very readable account, I recommend "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche.

As for the teachings of Advaita, if they were to be 'slotted' into one of the three bardos, I believe it would be the luminous bardo of dharmata wherein one recognizes that the clear light of one's own being is the intrinsic nature of everything.