From the Foundation to the Apex

[JustBe]

If you felt something is a personal attack, it’s good you acted in your truth.

I’ve got no criticism with you.

Observing the nature of things applies to others. You see personal criticism, I see what I see in you.

If your going around in circles why wouldn’t you want to know?

As for the rest, I probably went overboard..

So I’ll refrain myself from now on with respect.

[Native spirit]

Please be mindful that everyone has their own opinions do not make this into a disagrement on the forums. or posts will be Deleted.



Namaste

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Just like you don't know what your breath feels like unless you pay attention, knowing is immediate and cannot be acquired as knowledge. It requires attention return to where it exists. How long does it remain? Not a minute. Not even a few seconds......

In Buddhism Desire and Craving are not the same. Skillful /Wholesome Desires do not include Cravings and are beneficial...

Without skillful desire, it would be impossible to develop the path.
(SN 51:15).

[Gem]

Earlier, I was talking about how when practicing mindfulness you might intend to feel the breath, but by doing that you start to notice what the mind is doing. As some people insist that meditation is supposedly effortless, I insist that it demands a lot of attention, determination, persistence and so on.

Look at the disagreement which is now so very apparent, so obvious, and notice how it distracts from the subject and also raises stress levels. I anticipate it because it is a tendency.Tendencies recur.

It's not that this is the wrong thing, but it could easily keep escalating and become unreasonably disruptive - beyond the point of no return where the wildness goes spinning out of control - but all this is identical to what mind does in your mindful meditation. It's just that in mindfulness you come to recognise it with the realisation 'this is what I tend to do' or 'this is want Ive been doing in my life'. The next time that tendency arises it is easier to recognise again because you seen it before. After you have recognised it several times, you become more acute to it and start recognising subtler early signs. You get better and better at seeing 'OK I'm doing that thing again' and because you know what you are doing, the wildness no longer gets out of hand.

As the way of these threads show, tendencies of mind are very persistent, and noticing these of ourselves requires close attention. Much closer attention than you'd think. Very, very close attention, which when practiced hones the sensitivity of the mind so it become more and more acute to subtler and subtler levels, earlier and earlier signs, etc.

Hence all these things that go on will always return the attention, how feeling in the body relates to the reaction in the mind which becomes too wild and gets out of hand.

If you wanted to take the opportunity, this forum space in itself should be a reminder of the entire interplay of what I have been talking about all this time, and I have not been talking in a fragmented way jumping from this to that. I've been talking in a consistent manner about how everything goes together in 'the way' of mindfulness from foundation to apex.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Gem

Earlier, I was talking about how when practicing mindfulness you might intend to feel the breath, but by doing that you start to notice what the mind is doing. As some people insist that meditation is supposedly effortless, I insist that it demands a lot of attention, determination, persistence and so on.....

Quote Gem ' I insist that it demands a lot of attention, determine, persistence and so on. '

Insist

That's one word you would never find The Buddha using in any Scriptures.

Some may find that they need to put effort into Meditation but as it becomes something you do on a regular basis the effort decreases and it just becomes natural like breathing, effortless.... Everyone is different, some use effort to get to effortless....

[sentient]

To an outsider - this Ashram of yours Gem sounds like it might be an excellent program for high functioning autism person.
- To whom an eye contact might be awkward, uncomfortable.
- To whom touch might be painful, like poking one with red hot irons.
- To whom social interaction might be highly stressful.
- To whom all the exacting routines of the day would be comforting.
- To whose worldview can be very black & white - the 'morals' would be settling, bringing a sense of confidence and trust into the situation ...

Just focusing on sensing the sensations of one's big toe for a long time, even years & staying with that - what is - as it is .... without atraction/aversion/ignorance ...
Then moving into a whole body scan ... and all of this to stay calm & able to withstand the overwhelm ...
Then moving into breath in the nostrils & now being able to trust the meditation process even further ...

Just excellent imo ....

*

The only thing, that isn't excellent here - is the insistence that this process and program is tailor made for everyone ...

We all have our special 'needs' and problems and within Buddhism we do find our special place, which caters for those ...

*

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

...
The only thing, that isn't excellent here - is the insistence that this process and program is tailor made for everyone ...

We all have our special 'needs' and problems and within Buddhism we do find our special place, which caters for those ...

...... I prefer ' Advise ' to ' Insist '....

[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

......

sky. I am actually being quite sincere.
Haven't you had Aspie friends interested in Buddhism? Then end up racking your brain – how to.

- When discussions on the 'philosophy' end up quite futile (end up going nowhere – just around in circles) despite the clearly higher-than-average IQ.
- When Mantras won’t help – ending up in directionless, meaningless echolalia.

The program Gem is advocating here might just be the ‘ticket’.

Originally Posted by sky123

I prefer ' Advise ' to ' Insist '....

Yeah, but you are aware of personal boundaries … and can mentally step back ...

*

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Gem

Earlier, I was talking about how when practicing mindfulness you might intend to feel the breath, but by doing that you start to notice what the mind is doing. As some people insist that meditation is supposedly effortless, I insist that it demands a lot of attention, determination, persistence and so on....

Very true.
Yesterday I was trying hard to listen to my body for a little physical niggle when I thought , instead of trying so hard to listen to my body and in a struggle over its interconnected layered issue in my everyday movements, I decided to stop and just be with myself, I watched my breath, let go of all that layered trying too hard and suddenly, boom! The unravelling began, I observed some emotional containment over it, I actually began to understand my bodies wisdom in the layered interconnected issue and then began to tend to it with ‘touch, pressure points and movements.

When you understand yourself as the foundation to apex, this is how your body can respond more effectively and not be contained by your own hold or struggles through the mind.


It’s like you say about this little back and forth moments that lead nowhere, it’s you that can change direction with attentiveness inwardly. The going around in circles changes significantly into more, you notice more, when you actually pay attention. You see yourself move differently, sharing differently, engaging with yourself differently, which shows in the external..

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

To an outsider - this Ashram of yours Gem sounds like it might be an excellent program for high functioning autism person.
- To whom an eye contact might be awkward, uncomfortable.
- To whom touch might be painful, like poking one with red hot irons.
- To whom social interaction might be highly stressful.
- To whom all the exacting routines of the day would be comforting.
- To whose worldview can be very black & white - the 'morals' would be settling, bringing a sense of confidence and trust into the situation ...

The principle idea is to create conditions in which one is alone to work on meditation, so there are conduct guidelines that enable that. A tight schedule ensures all the stuff gets done and prevents procrastination issues along with broader aspects of the 'fetters', 'right effort' and so on.

Just focusing on sensing the sensations of one's big toe for a long time, even years & staying with that - what is - as it is .... without atraction/aversion/ignorance ...
Then moving into a whole body scan ... and all of this to stay calm & able to withstand the overwhelm ...
Then moving into breath in the nostrils & now being able to trust the meditation process even further ...

Just excellent imo ....

The only thing, that isn't excellent here - is the insistence that this process and program is tailor made for everyone ...

We all have our special 'needs' and problems and within Buddhism we do find our special place, which caters for those ...

Indeed. The usual process is usually starting by feeling the in/around the nose area to develop the skill necessary for entire body awareness, where one continues to hone the mind's sensitivity as you move to subtler and subtler levels of reality as experienced by you. As conscious awareness pervades the subtler aspects there is an interplay with mental/emotional contents, and it has a holistic purifying effect. In the Satipatthana all this is laid out in categories so as to explain how knowing vedana reveals the nature of the body/matter and knowing mental contents reveal nature of mind. Like for example, the disagreement is all thought fabrication which no one can see the subtle origins of, so it escalates to a wild state and becomes stressful. If awareness was more refined, the first inklings of disturbance would be noticed. Since it isn't noticed early, and by the time it is noticed it is wild and out of hand, we are like small children who need an authority to remind us how to behave.

You see in the above paragraph how the very formal technique I started talking about merged seemlessly to what happens here. The tendency is to generate not just a disagreement in passing, but a constant and escalating disagreeable mental state. My previous post was all about the tendencies and how they play out here, and much of I talk about is 'knowing what you are doing' here right now. Thus my story about meditation has been entirely relevant to the actualities of what's going on here, and that translate to the wider context of any individual's life.

That's where it applies to everyone, universally. Not the very particular details of a specific formal technique, but the underlying principles of conscious awareness, paying close attention, knowing what you do, being aware of what's going on and how are reacting, and having the ability to keep an even keel regardless of storms or calm seas.

Lastly, morals. I have interpreted your comments on parading morality as a bit of a personal dig because I have been explaining some intricacies on the subject. I ignored the comments because by now the things I talked about at the beginning of the thread like the link between feelings, cravings and the incitement of volitions including ill-will has been forgotten if it was ever paid attention to at all. It's just an understanding I came across as a result of dedicated formal meditation. I can see of myself how I generate ill-will from the ways in which I react, and how I only react to my own feelings, and hence, I really only generate ill-will towards what I feel, but tend to project it onto others. This too is not one way for me and another way for you. It works the same way for everyone. If indeed what I said in the broader context or morality, mindfulness and wisdom, is contradictory then point it out, tell me why it makes no sense and explain to me the correction which does make sense. Then I'll see that what you have noticed of yourself is also true of me because I'll see it of myself also.