Seek the truth

Nah, I really don't believe we have a "sinful nature" at all. In fact, this is just another method of control, among many used by the religious leaders down through the ages. "Yes, you're all born sinners and if you don't do/say/act as we tell you, you will burn in the depths of hell", lol. This is the duality mindset at work - black/white, good/bad, right/wrong etc.etc... we need to move beyond that fear/guilt induced thinking in order to progress, and realise who exactly we are.

The soul cannot die, IMO, either - how could it, when we are all one? And energy (which we are all comprised of) cannot die, merely change form. We can't sin in the eyes of 'God', as everything just 'is', and we are a part of this 'all'.... and therefore we cannot die due to this suposed wrong behaviour either.

I recommend reading the Conversations with God trilogy for a really good explanation of what I'm trying to say here.

Originally Posted by lemmex

Dreamer, you have made a very good point here. I try to read all these ideas with a open mind and sense of fairness within the context of who I am. I think I know what you meant and the spirit you wrote it in, and this is not intended to be a criticizm but a cautionary note.

I want to remind everyone to be cautious of making comments which trap us in one of superiority, that mine is better. I would caution everyone not to fall back in your comfort zone of familiarity. Christianity (and Jesus) is our heritage and legacy. It is not truly original.

I remind us all faith, both as belief and religion, are natural products of people and have been part of every civilization and time. It certainly has evloved conceptually. Now I certainly hope no one is saying Christianity is the best religion with comments as specific as that limit preception.

I think it important to remember we maintain a frame of reference and to remind ourselves, if you were born in the US, or Europe, you’re very likely a Christian, if born in Israel you practice Judaism, in the Mid-East, Islam, and so on. Faith is a product of culture, society, and teaching.

It may be Jesus is a Karma to us as well as are other great people of history. All religions and faiths have there merits and failings. Here is a question for the group, can a Wiccan be a Christian. (The answer is of course yes). I hope we do not practice exclusion.

Hey lemmex, thats absolutely right, there are many examples of enlightened personas through history and I would add there are many personal examples of enlightened thoughts that will appear within each of us - what is in is out. The jesus archetype is present in us all, his is one of many examples but is maybe the best known. Wherever you take your inspiration from it doesn't matter the message is the same, we are one - love everything in the knowledge that it is all you because love breeds confidence and confidence pushes boundaries and pushing boundaries break boundaries and breaking boundaries sets us free. The story of Jesus just puts this debate at centre stage - what is the truth of our existence and what an amazing job he did, can you imagine yourself being known by every man and woman on the planet in 2000 years? Whether you follow a religion or not is not important we are all equally One, what matters or should matter is finding the best way to exist in a fullfilled manner and jesus story shows us there need be no boundaries, we all have amazing power beyond our wildest dreams - so do the other great enlightened Ones, anything is possible, ask for the truth and dare to dream...


Jaycee, did you know that sin is derived from a word meaning lack/without, we are born in to doubt without total knowledge and confidence so we lack, this use of the word sin to imply something evil and insurmountable is just a result of the ignorance we were born into - so you could say we all have lack or sin but you're right to say not in the traditionally pushed fearfull sense we all know and love lol. Who knows maybe we are just reaching the point of an end of lack, seems that way to me.

Originally Posted by dreamer

Jaycee, did you know that sin is derived from a word meaning lack/without, we are born in to doubt without total knowledge and confidence so we lack, this use of the word sin to imply something evil and insurmountable is just a result of the ignorance we were born into - so you could say we all have lack or sin but you're right to say not in the traditionally pushed fearfull sense we all know and love lol. Who knows maybe we are just reaching the point of an end of lack, seems that way to me.

No I didn't know that Dreamer, but it sounds like good stuff to me! Thanks.

and 2000 years ago faith meant to have an open mind and test everything before accepting or rejecting it - rather like the modern definition for science. Puts a different spin on things when read this way..as it was intended huh.

How did Jesus die for our sins? It took me a long time to be able to understand and put into words how the death of one man could bring life to so many! Here goes though (Now remember you are 10 years old right )
We have a spirit father that created everything a long time ago. He also created other spiritual sons as well. One of these spiritual sons Satan became greedy and set about ruling the world thinking he could do a better job than his father. His reasons were selfish and has proved to do a really bad job of it.

The first man and woman Adam and Eve, were meant to live for ever and were aware that if they turned away from the guidence of there heavenly father then their father would turn away from them and they would die. They believed the lie that satan told them and were then sentensed to a decaying life without their father. But our spiritual father promised us a way back to him and to put an end to his rebellious sons actions. God our father promised to send his faithful son along when the time was right, to fix what his rebellious son nearly destroyed. God knew his son would not be recieved with open arms and would suffer greatly and of course Jesus knew this too.

Through Gods power his faithful angel was born into the world and became a man, Jesus. He came forth and showed himself faithful to God throughout his short life,loving, teaching and preaching Gods word, baptising, healing, resurrecting, expeling demons, reproving and saving mankind. He showed us the way back to our father. As predicted, Jesus was rejected as our saviour and was dealt with by the masses who did not believe in him. He was rejected and persecuted and suffered physically beyond what i can comprehend to the point of death. Jesus remained faithful and obedient to his father believing faithfully he would come back to life. He showed us the way. He showed us it is possible to stay obedient under the worst of circumstances. He showed us that we can live beyond the sentensed physical death. We get a second chance to live in this world when God has removed the wicked from the earth. He has promised to resurrect us, heal us and to write his laws in our hearts if we put our hope and faith in him. He taught us their is a better life ahead of us .

IMO: The biggest problems with religions today is not what god intends us to be or believe but simply human interpretation....human interpretation is what has and leads religions to be doubted and to be led further away from truth...

In any religion and in any belief there will always be people who follow them on a more superficial level-by this I mean they read up all that there is to be read and then use these belief systems/religions for their own benefit and to control people...and don't understand the deeper meanings of religions/belief systems.

As far as sinning is concerned-who are you judge me when you also have sinned?
Sinning as Jaycee points out is another form of control-and those that do try to control through usage of "sinning" very often have that "do as I say not as I do" type attitude.

Religions-if you look properly into them an see beyond the "you will burn in hell" human interpretation also teach us unconditional love, forgiveness, kindness etc and they are set out as GENERAL guidelines.
I also believe that you can pick the best out of the religion that either you have an interest in or are a follower of-but you can also pick the best out of any other kind of belief system...

In the end I really don't think religion is the problem-as I said before it's human beings that are the problem...

[daisy]

what i don't 'get' on the subject of 'sin' is vicars saying that the water used at baptism is to wash away the sins' of the baby??????????????
how can a newborn person /soul have/know/committed any sin???

Yeah that is a little confusing daisy-unless it's meant to be from the point of view of sins commited by parents-in the sense that the baby is washed from the sins that his/her parents may have commited...well that's the only way I can think about it...

Can someone help here please??

[daisy]

ah but how is creating a new life sin? isn't that why 'god' created man and woman after all

Well the way I think it might be (though this is a very very wild guess!!) is that in Christianity it might be dependent on the mother...
A number of religions-or all have this obsession with women being not as pure as men and I've heard of this if the mother is bad then the offspring will also be bad nonsense.
There is also this belief that blood from womens menstrutation is impure...and I think the same applies for blood concerning birth.
Christianity seems to be very concerned with women and purity and so what I'm guessing is that according to some people a baby when he/she is born is born in mothers blood and so the "impurity" of the mother is passed onto the baby...

I do find this way of thinking highly offensive!

Hope that made sense!

Lots of love,


S xxxx