Can we attain perfection without a Guru

"If one appears....." Yo, not Human. I am the gweat Zmilies Guru. I can enlaiten U. I cen teech you da trooth. I can meik U yooman agin. But first gimme that ice cream bahahaha

[sound]

: yes ... thats what enlightenment is all about seahorse ... nothing surer lol

Originally Posted by andrew g

From what I can tell, because quantum science is all about speculation and possibility then it ties more closely into the idea of 'faith' than the old materialistic 'conclusive' kind of science.

All science is faith, since they have faith in the reality of their senses. I don't think that because they are more doubtful of their conclusions that that means that they are now becoming more spiritual.

Originally Posted by andrew g

Well, there have been many people over the years that I have asked for guidance, and whether I have taken their guidance has depended on different things. In the end, I have usually taken it, though I might prevaricate for a while first. I agree that the path to enlightenment requires faith and sacrifice.

Enlightenment is not a cheap achievement. If you want to achieve such a goal people that you kind of have faith in are not going to help you.

Originally Posted by andrew g

I think full vision is very much a possibility, I just dont think that humanity is quite there yet, though the gurus are basically all but there and so for all intensive purposes are worth trusting.

Are you sure that all gurus are there? Does getting the title guru mean that they are there. Surely some guru's are not there.

Originally Posted by sound

Can you please explain what your idea of perfection is first I-Ching?

My idea of perfection is realizing the eternal reality. Realizing my eternal spiritual form and loving relationship with God.

Becoming liberated from the cycle of birth and death.

Well some gurus actually have ascended...inside their privately owned learjets !

The dilemma at this point is how one recognizes truth in other things and people. In order to pick a guru, in order to see wisdom in something else, it first must be recognized as such, which means the truth was already within you and your Listening mechanism. Your heard the truth you were capable of hearing at that time. As we seek and grow, our ability to hear truth changes and evolves. What we recognize as truth changes and evolves. If someone does take on a human or spirit guru in the traditional sense, there will necessarily come a time when the guru must be set aside so that we can continue to follow our evolving understanding of truth.

Hey I-Ching maybe you're a part of God so love yourself ! [IMG][/IMG]

[andrew g]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

All science is faith, since they have faith in the reality of their senses. I don't think that because they are more doubtful of their conclusions that that means that they are now becoming more spiritual.

I agree that science is faith, Im just not sure the traditional scientists would agree with that. The new science seems to acknowledge that the universe isnt a concrete observable thing and is more kind of a ''wooooh dude there's some crazy **** going on!''


Enlightenment is not a cheap achievement. If you want to achieve such a goal people that you kind of have faith in are not going to help you.

I agree that its not a cheap achievement. In the moments that I have asked for and taken their advice, I have indeed placed my faith in them.



Are you sure that all gurus are there? Does getting the title guru mean that they are there. Surely some guru's are not there.

What Im saying is that I DONT think the gurus are there. I think they are more 'there' than most. By definition, I would say a guru means 'almost there'.

Originally Posted by seahorse

Hello good people ! You know, ive been in some spiritual forums before. I think this is the first time someone asks this question. Can we find perfection without a Guru ? And what the heck is a guru anyway ? And how do we know if what the guru believes is the Truth and he/she is not a fraud or a delusional who lives inside his/her mind because he/she cannot cope with this world ?

One way to know is that the Guru is experiencing inner-bliss and is therefore detached from the world and self-satisfied.
Another way of knowing is that the Guru does not give His own opinion but gives the opinion of sastra.
Another way is that the Guru knows your heart because he/she is connected with God in the heart.
Another way is that the Guru is full of Love for all beings.

Originally Posted by seahorse

I like to think we are ALL children of the same Universe, and it's Truth is hardcoded inside each and every one of us. I don't think god/universe/spirit/mickey mouse would make it so hard for us to find the truth.

Yes this is true. That is why I think God sent us the I-Ching so that we can easily communicate with out Guru

Originally Posted by seahorse

As for gurus being there, i don't know where they are or heading. Maybe they teach people to quit fighting, it's so much easier this way. Or maybe they are right. All of them ? And why are we all so eager to accept someone else's truth ? Maybe because the majority of humanity is brain-washed from the cradle to believe in someone else ?

As human beings we are born in ignorance everything we know has been taught to us by someone else. To think we need Guidance is intelligence.

Originally Posted by seahorse

Have you ever wandered why no one ever teaches us to believe in ourselves ? Ghandhi didn't just pray for deliverance. He believed in himself, stood up and defeated the british empire without an army. That's how dangerous a person who chooses to believe a little in himself is.

You first have to know what is the self before you can believe in it.

[sound]

Originally Posted by I-Ching

My idea of perfection is realizing the eternal reality. Realizing my eternal spiritual form and loving relationship with God.

Becoming liberated from the cycle of birth and death.

I am imagining that the guru will be working on his/her own liberation, if he/she is looking to sidestep the cycle of birth and death, while manifesting in physical form ... and, we have all but concluded that the 'act' of realizing is, dare i say it, 'self' perpetuating lol, including those realizations experienced by the 'self-proclaimed' guru ... I am liking what not human said ... a guru can come in many forms including the fly which lands on ones hand during the arduous process of typing out a seemingly profound response to any given question ...