The Process that Leads from Suffering to Liberation

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Mr Interesting

I'd like to add that it's almost a genetic code within in to the extent that simply being born and growing to maturity is a pattern of growth we cannot help but be a part of as it is also what all nature does unthinkingly and just following the internal incumbent DNA.

So that we might find a point where we emerge from physical growth to enter emotional and intellectual it may be entirely natural to then grow spiritually. And each level includes the seeds of the next.

This said it may actually require more effort not to grow spiritually and this may be the reason why consumerism is such a deep dark whole in that it seems to offer a liberation we all feel we need but it doesn't pay like it should and our environment is the cost of that denial.

Yep... Genetics, like father like son in a very literal sense.

To my way of thinking, spirituality is really self awareness, and even though a lot of weight is given to paranormal abilities, that may distract from the process of purification. Purification isn't actually a process of gaining things, it's a process by which 'contaminants' are removed. Consumerism thrives on the aquisition of things.

Originally Posted by Gem

And so much more, because the human is involved in so much more than information and ideas. People are complex and emotional and entertain beliefs and have ideals, values, morals and ethics... have virtue, truthfulness and so on, and the reason talking things through contributes to a person's liberation is they get the stuff 'off their chest'; they bring things out into the open and shed light on the issues.

What you say is interesting. I don't often talk about my ideals, values, ethics, virtue, truthfulness etc. To be honest, I don't think about them often, but they are there in feeling.

What I find most helpful to talk about are emotional issues and reflections.

What I do most often on SF is offer alternative viewpoints. It's not necessarily that I have one different view to somebody else...it's that I consider everything from more than one angle. So that is my view of the world.

Personally, not interested in heaven and enlightenment, but yes people are driven by reward, so am I, it's just that my value system isn't material, it's spiritual, which is just another word for psychological... yep psychology in robes.

Heaven, enlightenment, freedom, peace, happiness, evolution - the connotation in all of them is that they are 'better' than their opposite counterpart and there are a million other ideals that have the same psychological effect upon people. They suit this world of comparatives...of seperation and opposition.

As you say, the binary oppositions or comparatives are the basic psychological building blocks of any process toward reward/attainment.

What if people were to be free of the process?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Meadows

What you say is interesting. I don't often talk about my ideals, values, ethics, virtue, truthfulness etc. To be honest, I don't think about them often, but they are there in feeling.

What I find most helpful to talk about are emotional issues and reflections.

that's interesting, because talking about things is a process, or a way of processing.

What I do most often on SF is offer alternative viewpoints. It's not necessarily that I have one different view to somebody else...it's that I consider everything from more than one angle. So that is my view of the world.

Heaven, enlightenment, freedom, peace, happiness, evolution - the connotation in all of them is that they are 'better' than their opposite counterpart and there are a million other ideals that have the same psychological effect upon people. They suit this world of comparatives...of seperation and opposition.

As you say, the binary oppositions or comparatives are the basic psychological building blocks of any process toward reward/attainment.

What if people were to be free of the process?

Well, I'm not here to promise enlightenment or anything, but this is a world of comparisons (I doubt that implies separations and oppositions) because it's all relative or interactive.

There is process and no one has a choice about that, like being born is a process of growth and decay and death, same for every person. That's not bondage though so we don't say 'free' from the process.

Originally Posted by Gem

that's interesting, because talking about things is a process, or a way of processing.

Well, I'm not here to promise enlightenment or anything, but this is a world of comparisons (I doubt that implies separations and oppositions) because it's all relative or interactive.

There is process and no one has a choice about that, like being born is a process of growth and decay and death, same for every person. That's not bondage though so we don't say 'free' from the process.

[/quote]

There is a difference between processing and defining a process.

Processing is an action that we undertake every moment of everyday.

However, defining a process is to create a theoretical model...the ingredients being a measurement from one state to another state.

It is that measurement that it is possible to live without.

Not everybody wants to, and that's fine. But it is possible.

Personally, my life doesn't make sense when viewed as a process. It isn't linear or necessarily logically ordered.

Psychologically, my mind doesn't always work the same as another persons mind might work. So I don't see things as a linear progression through life. I go backwards and forwards - and what matters is that I am living with whatever is here now...whether that is a memory, a hope, or the paper in front of me - at that moment it is in my mind, it is part of now.

So that is how time jumps about and why even the process of birth, life and death don't always work exclusively in that order. In my view they happen constantly and simultaneously. Whether we say I'm dying, I'm living or I'm being born is purely a momentary interpretation or perception.

I havn't suggested that you are here to promise enlightenment. I'm not discussing something personal about you. I'm simply discussing the original notion of whether there is a process from binding to freedom x

[Mr Interesting]

I have experienced stillness within meditation, not for a while actually, but I still remember it, whilst within life I have only calm... and somewhere in the middle lies peace.

I suppose the process of getting from one to the other is letting go and within the idea of process there is a direction which can be stop starty, here and thereish, but overall the lesson seems to be one of obsolescence. My ego and desiring self are obsolete.

The interesting thing is that the life itself doesn't change so much, I still breathe and walk and eat and make and clean, but the me that demanded being seen is drifting away.

The surface quality doesn't matter so much but that the inner breathes into it is a direction, is the process.

[Sarian]

Originally Posted by Gem

The principle is that the freedom of infinite peace and love already exists within each individual. In that people are not directly aware of that, the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

This thread explores the process of moving from the bondage of suffering to freedom and liberation...

The only universal truth is a person's direct experience, so everyone is equally footed and has explorations of their own to make.

From suffering to liberation, what's the process?

Ive not read anything else on this thread yet. I'm not as spiritually advanced and knowledgeable as others seem, but my first though for me personally is 'letting go'. i have always known that I am my own worst enemy, but when I let go, whether it be religion or a relationship or a hangup I have, I find such liberation that feels so incredibly freeing. My hangups/issues are harder, but still when I let go, it's wonderful. I feel unshackled. I feel like I am better for it in all ways.

[Sarian]

Originally Posted by Gem

What causes the bondage a person lives with and how the binds are untied is the basis of the process. It isn't like there's a blanket answer or a principle that's universally applicable except people have to discover for themselves and make the determination to overcome their problems and untie the bindings, so there no authority on the subject.

The opportunity exists to talk it through and propagate ideas, and in a mutually supportive environment, explore and inquire and discover.

Bondage can begin anywhere or any time and we don't even realize it. I've started one of my books and having to look back and things in my life that led me to become obsessed with certain things about my physical self, I'm blown away by. Simple, stupid things really from having a mother who possibly subconsciously was unhappy with aspects about me or herself for that matter and therefore, tried to make me into what she wanted or who she wished she had been...but very early on, that seed was planted within me, and it's caused me suffering on many levels and put me into bondage.

In relationships, all one has to do is observe how one's friends or mate treats others and then treats you and it starts something. I've always watched how people interact with each other and then I would notice how people interacted with me, when I'm quiet and withdrawn, of course, people don't want to interact with me much and then I can wall myself and label myself names such as misfit and by doing that, I do a disservice to myself. Sometimes I'm very outgoing and people gravitate towards me, but I dare not think good of myself because usually when I do that, the quiet and withdrawn me comes back out and people wonder what's up with me. so I've put myself in my own little prison.

There's not a one-size-fits-all solution to untying the bondage and freeing oneself. There are gazillions of books out there telling you if you do x, y and z you will be free, but it really only comes down to that quiet time with yourself and wanting to be free bad enough and being willing to undergo the painful process of breaking out yourself. We all have the power within us to do so, but you have to want it bad enough. Whining and wallowing don't cut it.

[Gem]

There is a difference between processing and defining a process.

Processing is an action that we undertake every moment of everyday.

However, defining a process is to create a theoretical model...the ingredients being a measurement from one state to another state.

It is that measurement that it is possible to live without.

Not everybody wants to, and that's fine. But it is possible.

Personally, my life doesn't make sense when viewed as a process. It isn't linear or necessarily logically ordered.

Psychologically, my mind doesn't always work the same as another persons mind might work. So I don't see things as a linear progression through life. I go backwards and forwards - and what matters is that I am living with whatever is here now...whether that is a memory, a hope, or the paper in front of me - at that moment it is in my mind, it is part of now.

So that is how time jumps about and why even the process of birth, life and death don't always work exclusively in that order. In my view they happen constantly and simultaneously. Whether we say I'm dying, I'm living or I'm being born is purely a momentary interpretation or perception.

I havn't suggested that you are here to promise enlightenment. I'm not discussing something personal about you. I'm simply discussing the original notion of whether there is a process from binding to freedom x

Processing involves undertaking a process. That process isn't always defined or planned, but it often is. This thread focuses on a state of being trapped or inhibited and the process by which that is overcome so that a person is freed up or liberated.

I don't see dying as being born, my gran died and my niece was born, but we'll all go through that same process.

Originally Posted by andrew g

If I start from the assumption that its an individual process rather than a collective process, I would say the process is principally a perspective shift, or a frame of reference shift. Because of the nature of the frame of reference of bondage/suffering, it can be a very emotional and physical process in which deep hurts, fears and attachments are released. But not necessarily. A single insight can be very transformative, though based on my experience, I wouldn't recommend going looking for the single transformative insight. I would more likely recommend an attitude of exploration, willingness to learn, open mindedness and discernment. I am also likely to recommend cultivating certain qualities and practices such as meditation, open mindedness, compassion, self-honesty, forgiveness. And having said that, my own 'freedom and liberation' is only relative to the bondage and suffering I used to experience, I wouldn't claim to be totally free and liberated, so my recommendations are offered subjectively rather than absolutely.

IMO this is the only post that actually answered the question and the only one I could really relate to.....thank you......

Originally Posted by Gem

Processing involves undertaking a process. That process isn't always defined or planned, but it often is. This thread focuses on a state of being trapped or inhibited and the process by which that is overcome so that a person is freed up or liberated.

I don't see dying as being born, my gran died and my niece was born, but we'll all go through that same process.

It's ok to have different views. I was simply expressing an alternative to yours

the assumption is that there is a process which leads to the direct experience that liberation.

It was this aspect of the thread I was commenting on...but I will let it get back to the focus you wanted - apologies.