What I believe full enlightenment is

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

IMO, this reality calls for sensitivity all round, for compassion and lovingkindness in posing many questions which call for reflection, humility, and admission of our (personal and common) iniquities and shortcomings, as we begin to awaken individually and communally. Context, ethics, and boundaries are equally crucial to rights and liberties, to our developing humanity...and it will fall to us to consciously engage (or not), and to take part in consciously shaping potentials in our reality, or not.

Hi there, 7L. I think Neil's comment: "We will keep learning..ie :- being enlightened for a very very very long long long time," which I groove with, aligns with this.

Also, from my treatise:

Any and everyone’s psychospiritual process being so multi-factor determined and fluidly moment-to-moment variable as to only be approximately known, felt and related to (by way of ‘normal’ consciousness and cognition, that is), and what one thinks and feels in relation and response to any given stimulus at any given point pretty much just being a function of one’s history prior to one’s arrival at such point in any case, I more than anything else recommend that you (anyone!) primarily rely on the results of your earnestly praying, that is, of your intentionally desiring and attitudinally expecting, to be shown (by capital ‘M’ Mind) whatever, if anything, you may (presently) not be seeing which it might be better for you to see (‘better’ in terms of leading you in a ‘greater’ Love and Joy Life‑Flow direction), and that you also be sparked and spurred (by capital ‘S’ Spirit) to ‘do’ whatever would be best in that case (‘best’ by virtue of your consequently becoming as Love and Joy Flow-augmenting as you can possibly be in such vein).* The rationale here being (1) that the Reality, or Nature, of (all!) Being-n-Doing is such that every soul ultimately has to ‘find’ its own way to grow and continue to flourish, that is if it is to continue to grow and flourish; and (2) that mentally and emotionally tapping into the capital ‘P’ Power of your (it is ours, really!) supranodal capital ‘S’ Soul is your (anyone’s!) ‘best bet’ in this regard.

[Footnote*: It is in relation to actualizing such maximum possible Love and Joy experience and expression that the advice, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you,” (Matthew 7:7) may be put to the most ‘profitable’ use because it is then focused on ‘activating’ the primary ‘program’ of Life Itself!]

Thinking and feeling that you (or anyone else for that matter) have reached the 'zenith' of (possible) 'enlightenment' is a boondoggle which will surely way to short-circuit and limit your psychospiritual growth and development process, IOW. This is the 'bane' of all 'traditions' (to date, that is. )

[JustBe]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The fully enlightened being is both the fly, the swatter, and the knowing of the Will which visions whether the fly lives or dies and 'who' is the instrument of its demise. In truth they are and know they are all of it- which is the definition of "fully enlightened"...knowing by direct conscious Identity.

So in that case, who lives, who dies? Who is the one but not the other? Is there even a death?

If the Supreme Being wants to drive a BMW, they know they are also the BMW, the driver, and the highway.

Meanwhile we judge all this from limited moral, rational, reasoned premise which informs the discussion.

Indeed, you do have to understand yourself as ‘the whole’.

Buddhists speak of, impermanence, in this view everything including enlightenment must fit into this view. Death as well. A transitionary process..

In the end all you have is liberation from everything the mind once dictated as an illusionary veil.

The experience of Enlightenment and bliss then becoming a process to liberation perhaps?

Liberation -no longer bound by the conditioned illusion. Liberation experiencing itself as that.

If we are the whole those moments of awareness as experiencing bliss, experiencing oneness, experiencing enlightenment, we are remembering what we are. There is no experiencer experiencing these things, you are those things, so everything would be impermanent and the experience of them as well..

If your aware your everything in the whole experience you probably wouldn’t swat the fly, but if you did you wouldn’t be contained by its death or your own action and choice in feeling. Nor that of others if they swatted the fly.

Others of course will dictate from where they are and it might be a different view, but then you too, realize your them as well..so the wheel keeps on turning, showing you in everything.

Who am I?

[neil]

Originally Posted by davidsun

What you say accords with my view, Neil, except, since I think that concepts and ideas are potentially useful tools I would advocate keeping (and not forgetting) 'enlightenment' in one's tool chest for possible (hopefully 'wise') use if and as occasion arises for doing so, as it has here.

And so David, when you or others are liberated from the flesh & earthly life, & you & others find your selves standing beside your now decomposing earthly body.

Would you & others sit down in that moment, in lotus position & meditate or practice stillness or nothingness etc, still in search for enlightenment.

Because you will still be the same persons after liberation as you are now, nothing changes in your mind of awareness & consciousness...So i am guessing that you & others of the same beliefs of the importance of enlightenment, will do exactly that.

Those persons that are now without the flesh & brain & residents of the natural spiritual lands are the same as us, save the physical body. So, do you think that they still sit in lotus position attempting to raise their spiritual vibrations..of which i believe is a very false & misleading belief.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Jyotir...
I agree that negative judgment is misplaced and generally is to be avoided, such that we can save our discernment for ourselves (especially), our society, and our broader culture of humanity. That is where our clarity of judgment is sorely needed.

Unlike negative judgment, both discernment and good regard, however, are always needed...and hopefully remain widely appreciated, though that depends on all of us and what we choose to allow and to value

I also think that the act of posing genuine questions is itself often judged, but more instinctively.
As many are triggered by the fact of questions being posed. In many contexts, folks were taught that it is offensive to question, and that in so doing, the authority of others (usually elders or institutions) was being undermined. Or, that to offer their opinion was confrontational and shouldn't be done, which on some level makes many uncomfortable if asked what they think.

Many folks have internalized this and thus feel personally triggered. That is, the act of raising questions may put folks on the defensive personally, even if the questions are general in nature &/or posed purely for sincere discussion, reflection, and sharing. This is always really unfortunate as it may cause folks to feel pain or to feel attacked, due to all prior experience from having lived on planet earth. Even when not the intention by any means.

IMO, this reality calls for sensitivity all round, for compassion and lovingkindness in posing many questions which call for reflection, humility, and admission of our (personal and common) iniquities and shortcomings, as we begin to awaken individually and communally. Context, ethics, and boundaries are equally crucial to rights and liberties, to our developing humanity...and it will fall to us to consciously engage (or not), and to take part in consciously shaping potentials in our reality, or not.

What are your thoughts on this?

Peace & blessings
7L

My initial thoughts on this involve Elon Musk, aluminium silicate particles in contrails, 5G technology and the advancements made in "Deep Fakes" and advanced technology made cheaply like Google Cardboard..and then I get that thought out of my head... don't go there..

Then, I don't get triggered..I am triggered to remember...all of the tales from the battles in the war like Ashwottama the Elephant which sent Yudhisthira to hell for five days for telling a lie (but it seemed that gambling was a-okay). LOL

However, all was not lost... Yudhisthira rescued the souls of his four brothers from the clutches of Yama Deva, came back just in time to watch Bhima defeat Duryodhana by striking him in the groin as per a curse put on his "man part" by Draupadi..

Yeah, I know...

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hey :)

It seems as if Etty was authentic for sure, when you are faced with certain death you either have nothing to lose or everything to lose and in these times one is 100% genuine I would say.

All that I have been trying to point out is the impermanence of bliss in times of suffering. You don't blissfully pray for your sufferings to cease.

Bliss has different meanings to some, some separate, bliss from love and vice versa, some see bliss as ecstatic and such likes. It is an interesting discussion for sure because it covers a wide range of reflections of self and God or what you are, some emotional and personal and some not.

I think most would agree now from what has been discussed that y\you can't be experiencing permanent bliss in a way where you are feeling ecstatic and also praying for sufferings to end because the feeling of overwhelming happiness isn't present when you are praying for your life or the life of other's.

Can you be consumed in the love of what you are while still relating to suffering that's very likely indeed because one's open heart energy is full of compassion. This energy is not what I would initially refer to as Bliss, I would call it Love even though the words are interchangeable depending on context.

There is also a difference between Love that is impersonal and personal and I have been trying to illustrate these differences from a self reflection of irritation of the fly and such likes.

In regards to mother Teresa or anyone that prays for strength to carry on (as I have also done) reflects a lack of something and a wanting for things to be different from what they are presently and there is nothing wrong with that, but it does reflect an impermanence of something that is Love unconditional.

What I want to emphasise strongly is this permanence, this Completeness, this Bliss cannot be lived or experienced of this mind-body-world-reality.

This is what I would say Krishnamurti was suggesting also.


x daz x

Hey there Daz :)
First...you are getting into some subtle stuff. This is probably not going to make much sense to many folks. I am going to just keep it high-level so I can't cover every caveat, just broad strokes.

The subtle joy of being, without which the universe cannot exist (ananda) is absolutely most strongly sourced through equanimity. Which is not well developed in most of humanity at this time. It is the "left hand of Source" and it is present in all of What Is. You feel it as all around, or "outside", thus more impersonal...but yet, it always present for you...regardless of what is going on in your heart centre. Even when the heart centre is damaged, you feel it through your body, your cells, your organs...your most foundational level of physical being. And of course, you also feel it in your heart centre, even if damaged, in that neural net Running has talked about.

The ecstatic joy of being (also ananda) can come through the left or the right, but is more commonly understood as coming through the "right hand of Source". That's how most feel it, as a personal experience or revelation, as beginning "within" and touching their heart centre and their lower chakras. Often awakening higher chakras as well, at least momentarily. This is the high (often fleeting) that so many repeatedly seek. It can be the ecstasy of the saints or the momentary ecstasy of getting high or streaming porn. It all points to the same truth but it doesn't mean folks are all at the same place simply because they experience ecstasy. However, most folks have more experience with the personal, LOL...so this is all that many speak of when they think of joy or bliss.

These "hands" are merged or joined ever more deeply and intricately on our journey ...but none of that overrides or removes our suffering or our other experiences (thoughts, feelings). Nor should it, IMO.

That is because the truth of being present to all we are, including the suffering, is equally good and beautiful. It is equally of Love and cannot be erased or removed by other aspects of Love, like joy or bliss. Bliss is not the highest thing, IOW. It is one of many precious fruits or gifts of this journey, but it -- separately, just by itself -- is not the only one and it is not the "best" one (who says?). All you are and do and feel is also a precious gift.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Jyotir]

Hi 7L,

My final statement in reply #231 is just acknowledging the speculative and intellectual nature of most discussion on these matters; that little comes from direct experience, and therefore that such discussion is necessarily limited, partial, incomplete, distorted, and divisive, etc. - which is exactly why your comments are pertinent, e.g. the need for the 'compassion umbrella' So, I agree with most or all of what you say.(but the caveat too, that the required understanding of that umbrella is also necessarily restricted accordingly; why progress is such a struggle). That we are compassionately supported in that quest is really the amazing thing and gives hope.



~ J

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

My initial thoughts on this involve Elon Musk, aluminium silicate particles in contrails, 5G technology and the advancements made in "Deep Fakes" and advanced technology made cheaply like Google Cardboard..and then I get that thought out of my head... don't go there..

Then, I don't get triggered..I am triggered to remember...all of the tales from the battles in the war like Ashwottama the Elephant which sent Yudhisthira to hell for five days for telling a lie (but it seemed that gambling was a-okay). LOL

However, all was not lost... Yudhisthira rescued the souls of his four brothers from the clutches of Yama Deva, came back just in time to watch Bhima defeat Duryodhana by striking him in the groin as per a curse put on his "man part" by Draupadi..

Yeah, I know...

Hahahaha...LOL!!!
Very selective long memory, that...so true to life :)
Yet in the end Yudhisthira made lemonade out of the lemons...nice ending.

And that Bhima gent is the stuff. We need intel on that curse. J/K...because I would be too tempted to use it if it stopped harassment and assault, and yet targeted containment is not the ideal, just a stopgap. Since ideally you wouldn't need to use the curse and everyone would just mind themselves.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by DavidSun

Thinking and feeling that you (or anyone else for that matter) have reached the 'zenith' of (possible) 'enlightenment' is a boondoggle which will surely way to short-circuit and limit your psychospiritual growth and development process, IOW. This is the 'bane' of all 'traditions' (to date, that is. )

Hello DavidSun, yes, I would agree that we're not done anytime soon, if ever. I think as more of humanity awaken we will come to understand more fully how far we all still have to go...and that this is okay, and beyond that, that there is an inherent good which is true and beautiful in owning where we are right now, in this moment. And being present to that moment, and to each moment still to come on the journey.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi 7L,

My final statement in reply #231 is just acknowledging the speculative and intellectual nature of most discussion on these matters; that little comes from direct experience, and therefore that such discussion is necessarily limited, partial, incomplete, distorted, and divisive, etc. - which is exactly why your comments are pertinent, e.g. the need for the 'compassion umbrella' So, I agree with most or all of what you say.(but the caveat too, that the required understanding of that umbrella is also necessarily restricted accordingly; why progress is such a struggle). That we are compassionately supported in that quest is really the amazing thing and gives hope.

~ J

That is well said Jyotir...compassion is key, and yet often difficult to come by. Progress is a struggle, and it is generally not for the faint of heart or the uncommitted.

And yet, as you say, that we are compassionately supported on our journey is amazing. It absolutely is ...lest we forget ;)

Peace & blessings
7L

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by God-Like

It's not trash talking at all, it's telling it how it is .. If that upsets people then they need to look at why it does ....

To me this kind of stance is a discussion stopper. Nothing written further could be worth reading (no offence intended to you).